Texas Exit.

[JonC]

You mean satan never was in the garden attempting to bring Adam and Eve under his authority?

You say 'in the justification of your own racism'. In other words, the Scriptures speak for themselves and you can say nothing against them.

Quantrill

I mean that while God ordains evil to come to pass for His purposes (Adam's sin, Christian persecution) this does not make God approve of sin.

God used Christian persecution to both preserve the Church and spread Christianity. But this does not mean the persecution of Christians was less evil.

Likewise, God used slavery to reach many with the gospel. But that does not mean slavery is less evil.

 

[Quantrill]

God has ordained murder, rape and other vile things that allow evil humans to act in their evil ways. I condemn evil, which is why I condemn slavery and racism.

No, God has not ordained murder, rape, and other vile things. He did establish slavery. You and America have branded slavery as vile and evil. Not God.

Slavery is the natural condition of man, period. Saved or lost. Adam and Eve in the garden were slaves to God. He was their Master. He gave them work to do. He expected their obedience. That was prior to the fall.

But don't preach that in America. Cause slavery is the most vile evil to ever come on the scene. Odd isn't it. America is built on 'independence' and yet God never wants man independent. We in America want our rights, but as Christians we have no 'rights' before God. If you want your rights, you get a ticket to hell.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I mean that while God ordains evil to come to pass for His purposes (Adam's sin, Christian persecution) this does not make God approve of sin.

God used Christian persecution to both preserve the Church and spread Christianity. But this does not mean the persecution of Christians was less evil.

Likewise, God used slavery to reach many with the gospel. But that does not mean slavery is less evil.

God never says slavery is sin. Hence your problem.

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

You need to read the posts involved in that statement.

If my posts reveal a 'disdain' for people of color, you might point out where. Do I have a disdain for people of color who have a disdain for me because I am white? Yes. Coupled with that, if I show a disdain for them, I am racist, but they are not.

Are you saying I have used Scripture falsely? I would want to know where. The American religion of diversity and equality has permeated the Churches, as I have said.

You must distinguish between Christianity and State. Diversity and equality can only work in the Church. It cannot work in a nation. Because America was largely Christian in the beginning, it could work because the Holy Spirit is the only source that can bridge the racial divides.

Now that the nation is no longer Christian, diversity and equality won't work. Each race will vie for it's own. And all the 'people of color races' will be against the white race. Because it is the white race that God used to establish this nation.

Quantrill

I say you misuse scripture because you fail to understand the various covenants God has made with men and how those covenants present different relationships in the Bible. You misunderstand scripture because you don't grasp that the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant is done while the Abrahamic and New Covenants still function. These two covenants are covenants to all people who God has chosen.

You fail to realize that the US was never Christian, it was always secular. You fail to accept that even Christians are sinners who do sinful things that God calls them to repent of or be disciplined. Failing to recognize all persons as equal is a sin. Failing to see a person as a brother and sister in Christ and instead seeing them by the color of their skin is a sin.

Galatians 2:11-21
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Genesis 17:5-8
5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

Galatians 3:10-14
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

There is no longer any separation. Yet you promote separation that God does not promote.

 

[JonC]

God never says slavery is sin. Hence your problem.

Quantrill

I never said all forms of "slavery" is a sin.

I said American slavery was a sin and I am indicating very strongly that those "Christians" who do not recognize slavery in America to have been a sin are sinful and most likely blinded by their own racism.

 

[Quantrill]

I say you misuse scripture because you fail to understand the various covenants God has made with men and how those covenants present different relationships in the Bible. You misunderstand scripture because you don't grasp that the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant is done while the Abrahamic and New Covenants still function. These two covenants are covenants to all people who God has chosen.

You fail to realize that the US was never Christian, it was always secular. You fail to accept that even Christians are sinners who do sinful things that God calls them to repent of or be disciplined. Failing to recognize all persons as equal is a sin. Failing to see a person as a brother and sister in Christ and instead seeing them by the color of their skin is a sin.

Galatians 2:11-21
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Genesis 17:5-8
5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

Galatians 3:10-14
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

There is no longer any separation. Yet you promote separation that God does not promote.

You make many accusations against me that are not true. It is God Who brings the covenants. It is He Who places man under a certain stewardship of responsibility and obedience. I understand that quite well.

America was founded on Christianity. See the Mayflower Compact. Once a government was created separate from England, you had the affects of the 'enlightenment' involved also, but America was running on Christian pistons. Churches were built everywhere. The Ten commandments put up everywhere in public places. Etc. etc. etc.

I don't know where you get the idea that I don't see all Christians as sinners.

I have stated many times already, that in the Church all are equal in Christ. You are confusing the nation and the Church. Your use of (Galatians) involves the Church.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I never said all forms of "slavery" is a sin.

I said American slavery was a sin and I am indicating very strongly that those "Christians" who do not recognize slavery in America to have been a sin are sinful and most likely blinded by their own racism.

(Lev. 25:44-46) Was that slavery a sin?

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

(Lev. 25:44-46) Was that slavery a sin?

Quantrill

We do not know enough to say. It could be a command particular to Israel in preserving the nation. It was most likely a command of restraint (like an eye for an eye) given within the context of an existing culture.

Either way it does not matter.

I was saying American slavery was evil.

 

[Salty]

I have stated many times already, that in the Church all are equal in Christ. You are confusing the nation and the Church. Your use of (Galatians) involves the Church. l

I have started a new thread on this:
Equal in the Church

 

[AustinC]

No, God has not ordained murder, rape, and other vile things. He did establish slavery. You and America have branded slavery as vile and evil. Not God.

Slavery is the natural condition of man, period. Saved or lost. Adam and Eve in the garden were slaves to God. He was their Master. He gave them work to do. He expected their obedience. That was prior to the fall.

But don't preach that in America. Cause slavery is the most vile evil to ever come on the scene. Odd isn't it. America is built on 'independence' and yet God never wants man independent. We in America want our rights, but as Christians we have no 'rights' before God. If you want your rights, you get a ticket to hell.

Quantrill

Sure he has. God could say no to all sins, but he doesn't. He allows murder, rape and other sins to take place. Thus God has ordained them.
God never established slavery. Slavery is straight from the wicked heart of man and God has allowed man to act wickedly. He allows this for a season, but he also brings his righteous judgment upon wicked humans. God ordained that hundreds of thousands of US citizens would be killed due to slavery being allowed in the US. Had wicked sinners repented, many humans would have lived and not died.

Tell me where God calls Adam and Eve his slaves. I will wait for the scripture from Genesis 2 and 3.

 

[AustinC]

You make many accusations against me that are not true. It is God Who brings the covenants. It is He Who places man under a certain stewardship of responsibility and obedience. I understand that quite well.

America was founded on Christianity. See the Mayflower Compact. Once a government was created separate from England, you had the affects of the 'enlightenment' involved also, but America was running on Christian pistons. Churches were built everywhere. The Ten commandments put up everywhere in public places. Etc. etc. etc.

I don't know where you get the idea that I don't see all Christians as sinners.

I have stated many times already, that in the Church all are equal in Christ. You are confusing the nation and the Church. Your use of (Galatians) involves the Church.

Quantrill

Your response shows you don't understand God's covenants.

 

[Baptist Believer]

America was founded on Christianity. See the Mayflower Compact. Once a government was created separate from England, you had the affects of the 'enlightenment' involved also, but America was running on Christian pistons. Churches were built everywhere. The Ten commandments put up everywhere in public places. Etc. etc. etc.

Actually, no.

There were many Christians involved in the founding of the colonies, but also many, many deists and very nominal religionists who were baptized as infants but had no interest in God.

Colonial America was more secular than the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Certainly there were churches in many places, but that does not mean that our country was founded on Christianity or even "running of Christian pistons."

 

[Quantrill]

We do not know enough to say. It could be a command particular to Israel in preserving the nation. It was most likely a command of restraint (like an eye for an eye) given within the context of an existing culture.

Either way it does not matter.

I was saying American slavery was evil.

Shows the degree that you will go to find slavery evil. Even God must bow to American religion.

(Lev. 25:44-46) is clear. It is from God. It is not sin. It is not evil.

It does matter.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I have started a new thread on this:
Equal in the Church

I saw that. I sure wish you would have put it where I can respond. I can't respond in Baptist forums. I will say this here, when I said we are equal in the church I was addressing the idea of race as that is how it was addressed to me. So, in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, black or white, etc. etc.

Of course we are not all equal in the spiritual gifts God has given for there is distinction there. And, I believe the Christian will be given rewards in Heaven at the Judgement Seat of Christ based on his use by God on this earth. Some may not receive any reward, yet be there. And, our rewards will dictate a position of authority there, I believe. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

So, though we Christians are all in Christ there are still distinctions. Equality is not a blanket covering every aspect of spiritual life. And it is certainly not a blanket in this life, as many try and use it for.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Sure he has. God could say no to all sins, but he doesn't. He allows murder, rape and other sins to take place. Thus God has ordained them.
God never established slavery. Slavery is straight from the wicked heart of man and God has allowed man to act wickedly. He allows this for a season, but he also brings his righteous judgment upon wicked humans. God ordained that hundreds of thousands of US citizens would be killed due to slavery being allowed in the US. Had wicked sinners repented, many humans would have lived and not died.

Tell me where God calls Adam and Eve his slaves. I will wait for the scripture from Genesis 2 and 3.

I just showed you. It is found in the first book of the Bible. (Gen. 1:27-2:25) Was Adam and Eve answerable to God or not? Was God their Master? Lord? Did God give Adam and Eve responsibility? Were Adam and Eve required to be obedient to God? If they were disobedient, were they punished?

Master/slave.

See. You can't deny it so you request the exact same words to prove it not so. It doesn't say 'Adam and Eve were slaves to God'. So you must rely on that. But it does define the Master/slave relation. Slavery is the natural condition of human beings to God.

This is why human beings have so demonized slavery and made it evil before the world. They hate God. They don't want to be slaves to any man, and they don't want to be slaves to God.

Does it bother you to bow before God. To bend the knee. To recognize Him for Who He is and recognize who you are before Him? Of course it doesn't. But, just don't call me a slave...you say.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Actually, no.

There were many Christians involved in the founding of the colonies, but also many, many deists and very nominal religionists who were baptized as infants but had no interest in God.

Colonial America was more secular than the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Certainly there were churches in many places, but that does not mean that our country was founded on Christianity or even "running of Christian pistons."

Actually yes.

I just showed the Mayflower Compact is proof of the Christian origin of America. These white Christians came from Christian Europe. The laws formed would be based upon the Bible.

It doesn't matter that there some who were not Christians. The vast majority were. And the government would be based upon the Bible. You say no, yet it is written all over the Court houses in America. Of course it is now being erased through the help of atheistic America.

The very fact that the Ten commandments and prayer to the God of the Bible is being removed everywhere shows that it was based upon Christianity.

Again, when Biden was sworn in as President, when a Supreme Court justice is sworn in as a judge, where does his right hand sit?

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

Shows the degree that you will go to find slavery evil. Even God must bow to American religion.

(Lev. 25:44-46) is clear. It is from God. It is not sin. It is not evil.

It does matter.

Quantrill

Yes, it does matter. Slavery was and is evil. Period.

You would do well to read the Bible rather than trying to extract pieces to justify sin.

If you decide to do so, pay attention to Jesus' sermons on the plain and on the mount.

 

[JonC]

Again, when Biden was sworn in as President, when a Supreme Court justice is sworn in as a judge, where does his right hand sit?

Quantrill

That is up to the person being sworn in. It could be a dictionary. It could be a Bible. It could be no book at all.

 

[JonC]

For clarification.

The institution of slavery in our nation was evil. Those who participated sinned against their fellow men. They were regular people caught up in the narrative of their culture.

But make no mistake - slavery in the US was evil. Racism is evil.

The mentality of owing another person and treating them as property is the opposite of Christ's example and sermons on how we are to love one another.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Because of the racism expressed on this thread, it is closed.