Thank Calvin for your freedom

[Luke2427]

I thank God first and foremost. I am sorry you struggle with that. I'm not here to sing the praises of man, or type them, or speak them, for whatever loophole you might find in that statement. To me it is idolatrous in nature, which shows another reason why I won't become thematic about Calvinism. So let's agree to disagree and leave it lie. All the subpoints you can give on this in further attempt to prove you're right are a given. I just don't happen to agree with them.

Who said to NOT thank God first and foremost?

You don't agree that we ought to thank PEOPLE too????

Do you thank your mother???

That's silly.

Of course it is ok to thank Calvin and George Washington and Ben Franklin for our freedom.

To argue against that is nonsensical.

And we were doing so well, you and I.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Crabtownboy]

This article should answer your questions.

BTW, I attend Liberty University which is anti-Calvinistic. They don't say anything in their history classes about Calvin either. Wonder why?

Luke, I read the piece in the Washington Post. You should give credit and a link to it. The piece is obviously filled with omissions of the history of the Puritans and their intolerance for others. The piece is not balanced in its approach to Calvin or the Puritans as seemingly they could and can do no wrong and are responsible for everything good. And that just isn't true.

By the way I have great respect for John Adams, but do believe he was not accurate on his statement on Geneva. Geneva was anything but a place of religious freedom.

 

[Luke2427]

The point is we do not have religious freedom because of Calvin or the Puritans. We have it because Virginia Baptists and other Baptists fought tooth and nail to have it included in the Bill of Rights. There was no religious freedom under the original Constitution. Many, and I expect some Puritans wanted State religious ... i.e. the Anglican Church in Virginia and Puritans in Massachusetts. Others could be banned or persecuted at will ... as happened in Virginia prior to the Bill of Rights being adopted into the Constitution.

The Puritans [Calvinists] were not pro other people's religious freedom!

Remember ... Roger Williams, preached religious toleration, separation of Church and State, and a complete break with the Church of England, was banished and founded Rhode Island Colony, which became a haven for other refugees from the Puritan community, such as Anne Hutchinson. Quakers were brutally expelled from Massachusetts. They were welcomed in Rhode Island

I agree. I don't really care that much for the freedom of a Muslim to worship in this country, if the truth be told.

But FREEDOM as a whole comes from (God first- preacher4truth) Calvin.

It is improper for us to remember the Pilgrims on thanksgiving and spit in the eye of that which drove them across the ocean to come here- Calvinism.

I am not saying you do that, BTW. I don't think you do. But I started this thread in response to those who do.

It ought also to be noted that Luther and Calvin gave us the "Protestant Work Ethic" which made America great.

 

[preacher4truth]

Who said to NOT thank God first and foremost?

You don't agree that we ought to thank PEOPLE too????

Do you thank your mother???

That's silly.

Of course it is ok to thank Calvin and George Washington and Ben Franklin for our freedom.

To argue against that is nonsensical.

And we were doing so well, you and I.:smilewinkgrin:

What you don't see here, my little flower, is that when it is always pointing to Calvin this, Calvin that, Calvin, Calvin, Calvin!!! that my little "tulip" it becomes borderline idolatry. It's like the church I visited, every single quote was Pink Pink Pink!!!! I was hoping he'd mention Floyd in there too to balance it out. We never get in trouble when it is God we seek to exalt more than any other person. Calvinism tends to sing the praises of Calvin moreso than God.

I'm still pluckin' petals... "do he be alubbin me?" "do he be alubbin me not?"


:flower: :love2: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, I read the piece in the Washington Post. You should give credit and a link to it. The piece is obviously filled with omissions of the history of the Puritans and their intolerance for others. The piece is not balanced in its approach to Calvin or the Puritans as seemingly they could and can do no wrong and are responsible for everything good. And that just isn't true.

First of all, I meant to give the link.

Second of all the article was under no ethical obligation to adress EVERY grievance ANYBODY has with the Puritans in order to be balanced.

What the article says is true- that is enough.

If I tell you my uncle is a big man and you meet him and see that he is a fat man- would you say- "Luke you were dishonest!!! He is big because he is fat. You left that detali out!!1"

No, of course you wouldn't. The fact that he is big is TRUE regadless of the fact that he is big because he is fat.

The Washington Post article did not have to include a discourse on the Salem Witch trials to be true.

The Puritans were by and large GREAT GREAT people to whom we OWE a MASSIVE debt of gratitude.

That some of them did not do everything the way you would have should not discount that.

 

[Luke2427]

What you don't see here, my little flower, is that when it is always pointing to Calvin this, Calvin that, Calvin, Calvin, Calvin!!! that my little "tulip" it becomes borderline idolatry. It's like the church I visited, every single quote was Pink Pink Pink!!!! I was hoping he'd mention Floyd in there too to balance it out. We never get in trouble when it is God we seek to exalt more than any other person. Calvinism tends to sing the praises of Calvin moreso than God.

I'm still pluckin' petals... "do he be alubbin me?" "do he be alubbin me not?"


:flower: :love2: :smilewinkgrin:

I don't point to Calvin more than God.

And yea, I love you.

You can thank God for that, and thank Calvin for it too who said:

Brotherly love is, indeed, extended to strangers, for we are all of the same flesh, and are all created after the image of God; but because the image of God shines more brightly in those who have been regenerated, it is proper that the bond of love, among the disciples of Christ, should be far more close. In God brotherly love seeks its cause, from him it has its root, and to him it is directed. Thus, in proportion as it perceives any man to be a child of God, it embraces him with the greater warmth and affection. Besides, the mutual exercise of love cannot exist but in those who are guided by the same Spirit. It is the highest degree of brotherly love, therefore, that is here described by Christ; but we ought to believe, on the other hand, that, as the goodness of God extends to the whole world, so we ought to love all, even those who hate us.

But thank God FIRST!!:love2:

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't point to Calvin more than God.

And yea, I love you.

You can thank God for that, and thank Calvin for it too who said:



But thank God FIRST!!:love2:

I lubs ya man!!!

Do you have the puritan hard drive?

 

[Luke2427]

I lubs ya man!!!

Do you have the puritan hard drive?

No it's too dadgum expensive. I'll let you send it to me for Christmas!:thumbsup:

 

[HankD]

I wonder if the enemies of Calvinism have ever thought about the fact that Calvin is directly responsible for this great and free nation we live in.

One guy in the "Calvinism and Fundamnetalism" thread had the audacity to say that Calvinism is a "scourge".

I wonder how much people who make those remarks really know about history and theology.

Do they not know that the Pilgrims were not IFBer's- that they were Calvinists?

Do they not know that the Puritans who did as much to carve out this nation of ours as anybody were Calvinists?

Do they not know that John Calvin is considered to be THE founding father of America???

Do they not know that King George called the American Revolution- "The Presbyterian War"?

Do they not know that when they spit in Calvinism's eye they spit in the eye of their own heritage???????

Personally brother, I don't much care for labels and I really don't want to know if a brother/sister is calvinist or arminian or something else.

In my way of thinking, what is important is the fruit of the Spirit being seen in a vessel infilled with the Spirit having been born of the Spirit.

Fellowship should be around our great God and Savior Jesus Christ and all glory given to the Triune God though I believe it is proper to be thankful to those human vessels of whatever persuasion which He sends our way to help in a time of need.


HankD

 

[preacher4truth]

No it's too dadgum expensive. I'll let you send it to me for Christmas!:thumbsup:

It's on sale for only 497.97, you save 4500.00!!!!!


http://www.puritandownloads.com/swr...Bunyan_-Pink_-et-al)-Books_-MP3s_-Videos.html

 

[Luke2427]

Personally brother, I don't much care for labels and I really don't want to know if a brother/sister is calvinist or arminian or something else.

In my way of thinking, what is important is the fruit of the Spirit being seen in a vessel infilled with the Spirit having been born of the Spirit.

Fellowship should be around our great God and Savior Jesus Christ and all glory given to the Triune God though I believe it is proper to be thankful to those human vessels of whatever persuasion which He sends our way to help in a time of need.


HankD

Thanks Hank. I agree with all of this.

But I think those who are always spitting in Calvinism's eye need to know the truth about their heritage. They need to realize that John Calvin had more to do with the founding of this great nation than any other human in history.

And when they know that, then they will be slower to be so antagonistic towards Calvinism- because they will know that when they are, they are disrespecting their forefathers and their heritage and their nation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What you don't see here, my little flower, is that when it is always pointing to Calvin this, Calvin that, Calvin, Calvin, Calvin!!! that my little "tulip" it becomes borderline idolatry. It's like the church I visited, every single quote was Pink Pink Pink!!!! I was hoping he'd mention Floyd in there too to balance it out. We never get in trouble when it is God we seek to exalt more than any other person. Calvinism tends to sing the praises of Calvin moreso than God.

I'm still pluckin' petals... "do he be alubbin me?" "do he be alubbin me not?"


:flower: :love2: :smilewinkgrin:

Well that was a messed up church......go to the ones that point to Christ. You do know how Pink ended his days dont you?

 

[Jim1999]

Just because we use the common label of calvinism, to represent the five points, which weren't even drafted by Calvin, does not make us lovers of the man. He was a political dictator, observed false doctrines, and developed a state church as much as other reformers.

I respect Calvin, but I do not come close to adoring him. I much prefer Augustine in so many ways.

If you wish to praise calvinism for a free America, try praising King George III, for being a lunatic, and driving the settlers to seek their freedom.

Just because a lie is believed by a thousand men does not make it truth. Profane history makes it clear what a political tyrant and dictator John Calvin was.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Luke2427]

It's on sale for only 497.97, you save 4500.00!!!!!


http://www.puritandownloads.com/swr...Bunyan_-Pink_-et-al)-Books_-MP3s_-Videos.html

Then it will be a great time for you to buy it for me- and I know the Lord will bless you for it.

But I promise I won't thank YOU for it- just God. I know that will make you feel better.

Just kidding!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[HankD]

Thanks Hank. I agree with all of this.

But I think those who are always spitting in Calvinisms eye need to know the truth about their heritage. They need to realize that John Calvin had more to do with the founding of this great nation than any other human in history.

And when they know that then they will be slower to be so antagonistic towards Calvinism- because they will know they are disrespecting their forefathers and their heritage and their nation.

Agreed. We ought not to spit in anyone's eye (unless it's by accident when we are preaching the gospel to them).

HankD

 

[Luke2427]

Well that was a messed up church......go to the ones that point to Christ. You do know how Pink ended his days dont you?

This reminds me that I never responded to you on that pm that you sent me.

Pink couldn't find a pastor he could sit under. That's why he did not attend church in the end.

 

[Luke2427]

Agreed. We ought not to spit in anyone's eye (unless it's by accident when we are preaching the gospel to them).

HankD

Now THAT is funny.:laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

Just because we use the common label of calvinism, to represent the five points, which weren't even drafted by Calvin, does not make us lovers of the man. He was a political dictator, observed false doctrines, and developed a state church as much as other reformers.

I respect Calvin, but I do not come close to adoring him. I much prefer Augustine in so many ways.

If you wish to praise calvinism for a free America, try praising King George III, for being a lunatic, and driving the settlers to seek their freedom.

Just because a lie is believed by a thousand men does not make it truth. Profane history makes it clear what a political tyrant and dictator John Calvin was.

Cheers,

Jim

I don't think this is a fair representation of Calvin. He lived in a different world than we do. He did the best he could with what he knew at the time.

Let's remember our foundners were by and large slave owners. We still love them and honor them because we understand they lived in a different world.

I think this ought to be our attitude toward Calvin.

But regardless we ought to recognize that he had more to do with the founding of this nation we love than any other single man in history.

We can disagree with some of his political views and still thank him for America.

 

[matt wade]

But regardless we ought to recognize that he had more to do with the founding of this nation we love than any other single man in history.

First, I don't agree with that statement.

Second, Hitler had more to do with the shape that Germany is today than any other single man in history.

Just because (your think) a single person is responsible for the shape or founding of a nation, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

 

[Robert Snow]

Luke, you are really obsessed with Calvin, aren't you?

You might consider Calvin to be somewhere between the Apostles and the Trinity, but it just isn't so.

And, as far as Calvin being the father of America, you are delusional.

BTW, have you put up your Calvin...uh...I mean Christmas tree yet? :tongue3: