That He May Be Glorified

[Paleouss]

Thank you KenH for presenting this for debate.

When I first read this, I came away with one conclusion. But after reading it again, I'm not sure my first blush take away was correct. Trying to break down Kenny's quote, it seems that the overarching topic is...

"The satisfaction of God's justice"

If I restrict what Kenny says to just this overarching topic, then I find that I agree with him. That is, the satisfaction of justice...

...is found only in the righteous obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ unto death, even the death of the cross.

In other words, although Faith is man's required part per God...without the righteous obedience of Jesus Christ then justice would not have been satisfied. Sounds reasonable and biblically true to me.

Logical progress A
1. The wrath of God is justice for sin.
2. Only perfection satisfies the law and justice.
3. Therefore, only Christ's sacrifice satisfies God's justice.

This all seems biblically logical and true to me. But Kenny didn't stop with this simple logical progression that was clearly true. He went on...

It is never found through your repentance, for repentance is ever and always a God given turning away and denouncing of every false way in which you had formerly sought to approach him in order to gain his favor.

Kenny says that "It is never found through your repentance". This seems reasonable, that is, satisfying justice (which is the overarching topic he starts with) is not found in one's repentance. In fact, it has nothing to do with it.

Up to this point, Kenny doesn't seem to be debating whether salvation is applied before or after a person's belief and faith. But only what satisfies justice (which is only the blood of Christ).

But the second part of the quote above makes a logical jump that does not follow, imo. It would appear that Kenny takes his simple logical formulation that is true and then adds, "for repentance is ever and always a God given turning away and denouncing of every false."

Since the logical progress (A) was already true. I scratch my head as to why Kenny thinks this added quote, after the logical progression was already true, needed to be added. Now the whole construction of the argument changes.

Logical progress B
1. The wrath of God is justice for sin
2. Since repentance is ever and always a God given turning away.
3. Therefore, only Christ's sacrifice satisfies God's justice.

First, B#2 has nothing to do with B#1 (as we already saw in logical progression A). Even if one agrees with Kenny on B#2, it has nothing to do with the satisfaction of justice. For faith, whether "given" or "enabled" or "intrinsically capable" has nothing to do with the satisfaction of justice (per logical progression (A).

Anyway, just some musing


Keep seeking God truth

 

[KenH]

So your version of God judges man for something that he has no ability to do.

Romans 9:20 O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ.

Appears to me that the Bible says that it is God who quickens(makes alive). So, obviously, those quickened(made alive) were dead before. And it is God who does the quickening(making alive), not those who were previously dead.

Also, as far as I know, in the natural world, a dead corpse cannot do anything by its own will. It is no different spiritually.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

Sure seems like a lively corpse Ken. Of course God makes us alive in Him, we cannot save ourselves but as we see here:
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, even those dead in sin can hear and respond to the gospel message.

You do realize that a corpse cannot sin either. Why calvinists run to such illogical points in the attempt to support their view is rather odd.

Why you may ask, because
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

As Paul says here
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

So you see God makes us alive when we have trusted in Him.

 

[KenH]

You do realize that a corpse cannot sin either.

All mankind sinned in Adam.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:20 O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:30 What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Rom 9:32 Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”

God does not cause man to believe or reject Him as you seem to think. He does judge them for how they respond to His son.

As we see all can pursue God some by the law/works and some by faith.

 

[KenH]

Sure seems like a lively corpse Ken.

Physical life is one thing; spiritual life is a different thing.

 

[KenH]

As we see all can pursue God some by the law/works and some by faith.

And the ones who have faith have that faith because the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus and the grants them the gift of repentance of the dead works they formerly relied upon.

 

[Silverhair]

All mankind sinned in Adam.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Actually we are judged for our own sins not Adams. Just as we are saved when we freely choose to trust in Christ Jesus we are all considered sinners when we freely choose to sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

 

[Silverhair]

Physical life is one thing; spiritual life is a different thing.

Correct

 

[KenH]

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die.

True. And all mankind sinned in Adam, as I previously showed in Romans 5:12.

Furthermore, let's think hypothetically for a moment. Suppose a hypothetical baby is born this year, 2025, grows to be an adult and never, ever sins(which is impossible, but this is only hypothetical). Would this hypothetical baby die? Yes, this hypothetical baby would die.

 

[Silverhair]

And the ones who have faith have that faith because the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus and the grants them the gift of repentance of the dead works they formerly relied upon.

You have it backwards Ken. We are regenerated because we have faith in the risen Christ.

Joh_4:10 Jesus answered, “If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph_2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Salvation is the gift of God not faith. That is just you reading something into scripture that is not there.

 

[Silverhair]

True. And all mankind sinned in Adam, as I previously showed in Romans 5:12.

Furthermore, let's think hypothetically for a moment. Suppose a hypothetical baby is born this year, 2025, grows to be an adult and never, ever sins(which is impossible, but this is only hypothetical). Would this hypothetical baby die? Yes, this hypothetical baby would die.

What Rom 5:12 shows is that sin entered the world through Adam. If you read Gen 3.17-19 you will see the result of his sin.

Death is a consequence of Adam's sin, see Gen 3:19.

 

[KenH]

Salvation is the gift of God not faith.

Faith is a gift given by the Holy Spirit after He has regenerated one of God's elect.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

 

[KenH]

Death is a consequence of Adam's sin

Correct. All mankind sinned in Adam.

Jesus was not subject to death based on Adam's sin. Jesus laid down His life voluntarily for God's elect, as He was of the seed of the woman, and not of the seed of Adam.

 

[Ben1445]

Correct. All mankind sinned in Adam.

Jesus was not subject to death based on Adam's sin. Jesus laid down His life voluntarily for God's elect, as He was of the seed of the woman, and not of the seed of Adam.

Christ died for the ungodly, not the elect.

 

[KenH]

Christ died for the ungodly, not the elect.

God's elect are ungodly until the Holy Spirit regenerates them.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Silverhair]

Correct. All mankind sinned in Adam.

Jesus was not subject to death based on Adam's sin. Jesus laid down His life voluntarily for God's elect, as He was of the seed of the woman, and not of the seed of Adam.

Wrong again Ken. Death is the result of Adam's sin not that we are made sinful via Adam.

If your view were correct then since unrepentant sinners suffer in hell then all babies that die will be sent there as they could not repent of your all sin in Adam view.

So your saying that Mary was sinless?

 

[KenH]

If your view were correct then since unrepentant sinners suffer in hell then all babies that die will be sent there as they could not repent of your all sin in Adam view.

Anyone who is saved has Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to them, regardless of age.

 

[Silverhair]

God's elect are ungodly until the Holy Spirit regenerates them.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

By your logic Ken since we were all ungodly sinners prior to our trusting in Christ Jesus then all would be saved but that view is universalism. Are you a universalist Ken?

 

[KenH]

So your saying that Mary was sinless?

No. Mary was not sinless, she was of the seed of Adam. All mankind sinned in Adam, the man, not Eve, the woman.