That old "Baptism Saves" argument

[37818]

Now here is a question you need to answer. How was those ". . . eight souls, . . . saved through water"? Which water immersion is the anti-type.

Notice @kyredneck did not answer the question I had asked.

 

[kyredneck]

Your understanding has Jesus contradicting what He told Paul. 1 Corinthians 1:17.

And you're still proving me right. You're "a chip off the old block", for real.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor 1

My understanding has Jesus confirming the words of Peter:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

 

[kyredneck]

Notice @kyredneck did not answer the question I had asked.

Answer this question, 'who was Peter the apostle to'? While you're at it answer my previous question, 'who was Christ prophet to'?

 

[37818]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

@kyredneck dismisses my argument.

It is true, baptism there is included in the salvation. But that verse does not teach the baptism to be any kind of requirement. Rather ". . .he that disbelieveth shall be condemned." Nowhere is one who is not baptized condemned. Absolutely nowhere.

 

[KenH]

The only passage where baptism is actually included in being saved is Mark 16:16. But not the baptism but the believing is requirement in the verse. ". . . but he that believeth not shall be damned."

When I was in the Church of Christ my answer to you would have been that if one does not believe, then all being immersed does is to make the person wet.

 

[kyredneck]

@kyredneck dismisses my argument.

Your argument is irrelevant to the point that NT passages clearly teaches a saving from Baptism.

Now stop avoiding my questions:

6 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

Does Christ clearly state there is a 'saving' from baptism? The question for you AND the majority should be 'saved from what'? Who is the audience here? What was the time? What was going to transpire before that generation passed away? Who was Christ a prophet to?

 

[37818]

Answer this question, 'who was Peter the apostle to'? While you're at it answer my previous question, 'who was Christ prophet to'?

No. Why should I? You are avoiding answering my question.

 

[kyredneck]

You are avoiding answering my question.

I answered it. Your question is irrelevant to the point that NT passages clearly teaches a saving from Baptism.

Now stop avoiding my questions:

Does Christ clearly state there is a 'saving' from baptism? The question for you AND the majority should be 'saved from what'? Who is the audience here? What was the time? What was going to transpire before that generation passed away? Who was Christ a prophet to?

 

[percho]

Will the one saved, whether dead or alive, be baptized with immortality and incorruption at the coming of Christ in the kingdom of his glory?

Does water baptism picture that very thing? ----- Consider

“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. “Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ “If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:15-18

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11

for our being to the praise of His glory, even those who did first hope in the Christ, in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:12-14

They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.” But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” They said to Him, “We are able.” So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized; “but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared.” Marl 10:37-40

I am only asking; Do I have an argument?

 

[37818]

When I was in the Church of Christ my answer to you would have been that if one does not believe, then all being immersed does is to make the person wet.

And I agree. But Baptism is not part of the gospel per 1 Corinthians 1:17.

Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "

1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

 

[percho]

There's several passages in the NT that clearly teach that there is indeed a 'saving' from baptism. The sad fact is that evangelicals have so gommed it up that they can't see that the focus should be on 'sozo' and not 'baptizo'. I mostly blame Dispensationalism for that, and a condition I call 'hell on the brain', and an utter failure to follow the first rule of interpretation, audience relevance.

6 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

I believe the most important word in V 21 above is, "through," and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that to be the baptism spoken of. cup of suffering unto death and baptism of life of Spirit.

 

[37818]

I answered it. Your question is irrelevant to the point that NT passages clearly teaches a saving from Baptism.

How and for what reason? You say this is irrelevant. Why? Oh, you refuse to discuss, you rant.

 

[KenH]

And I agree. But Baptism is not part of the gospel per 1 Corinthians 1:17.

Obviously, I agree that works have no part in salvation. I left the Church of Christ about 24.5 years ago.

 

[KenH]

TSA

What is "TSA"?

 

[37818]

Baptism is not part of the gospel per 1 Corinthians 1:17.

And,. the following says nothing about baptism,

Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "

1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

 

[37818]

What is "TSA"?

That Says All.
It was supposed to be TSIA.
That Says It All.

 

[Van]

I'm engaged with a group on another forum which insists one isn't saved [until being water] baptized, with some even going so far as to say it's [water] baptism that saves!

I'm a Baptist who firmly believes every new Christian should be [water] baptized ASAP, but sometimes it's impossible to be [water] baptized immediately after salvation, and sometimes not at all. I pointed out several examples such as Paul & Silas' jailer & family, Cornelius & family, and the thief on the cross beside Jesus. I was amused by their attempts to say the thief was baptized earlier!

[Water]Baptism is the physical announcement to the world that person is saved, & is a command of Jesus. But without BELIEF & REPENTANCE first, it's just a gesture that only produces a wet sinner.

Posts concerning the need to be "baptized" for salvation need to address the "baptism" of Christ, where the individual is spiritually baptized into Christ, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. To leave this out of our presentation robs it of value.

 

[Lodic]

There's several passages in the NT that clearly teach that there is indeed a 'saving' from baptism. The sad fact is that evangelicals have so gommed it up that they can't see that the focus should be on 'sozo' and not 'baptizo'. I mostly blame Dispensationalism for that, and a condition I call 'hell on the brain', and an utter failure to follow the first rule of interpretation, audience relevance.

6 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

Thank you, Brother. I usually try to consider audience relevance, especially when it comes to prophecy. However, I must confess that I had not considered audience relevance when it came to these "be baptized" verses. Guess I haven't shaken off all my former Dispensationalist views. Anyway, the proper perspective makes all the difference.

 

[Van]

Mark 16:16 (NASB)
“The one who has believed and has been [spiritually] baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38 (NASB)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [spiritually] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21 (NASB)
Corresponding to that, [spiritual] baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God from a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Anytime you see a reference to baptism in scripture, you need to consider the context and determine, as best you can, whether a water baptism done by people, or a spiritual baptism into Christ is in view.

 

[tyndale1946]

Mark 16:16 (NASB)
“The one who has believed and has been [spiritually] baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38 (NASB)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [spiritually] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21 (NASB)
Corresponding to that, [spiritual] baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God from a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Anytime you see a reference to baptism in scripture, you need to consider the context and determine, as best you can, whether a water baptism done by people, or a spiritual baptism into Christ is in view.

Mark 16:16 (NASB)
“The one who has believed and has been [spiritually] baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38 (NASB)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [spiritually] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21 (NASB)
Corresponding to that, [spiritual] baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God from a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Anytime you see a reference to baptism in scripture, you need to consider the context and determine, as best you can, whether a water baptism done by people, or a spiritual baptism into Christ is in view.

Van you don't ask for spiritual baptism... Do you control the wind?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

And you can tack this one on with it

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

This is also a favorite among my people

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I hear some say see, those that love God?... Check scripture, he loved you first!... Brother Glen