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Featured "that which is perfect..." 1 Cor. 13:10

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonShaff, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Okay. It is now established that you don't know what Synecdoche means. :rolleyes:
     
  2. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    My friend sent me this the other day...

    Traditional interpretation: all prophecy will fail, all tongues will cease, all knowledge will vanish away when that which is perfect comes.


    1Co 13:1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


    1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


    1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


    1Co 13:4 ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,


    1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;


    1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;


    1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


    1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


    My take:

    This chapter is best understood if you read it as an entire chapter that compares a list of things to charity in order to show the superiority of charity to all things.


    However, for some reason verse 8 seems to be pulled from the context and tried to be made into an independent doctrine by many teachers. This chapter flows really beautifully if you can banish that thought and take it all in, including verse 8, as a sermon on charity.


    The context of this scripture (13:8) is that it is in the middle of other scripture in Chapter 13 where Paul is making a comparison of various things to charity. In verses 1-3 Paul is being dramatic and comparing charity to extreme super giftings or actions: Speaking with tongues of angels, having ALL knowledge and knowing ALL mysteries, literally moving mountains with faith, giving everything to the poor, and dying a martyr's death. These are not really something we are likely to experience, BUT he’s saying even if we could do these extreme things, these things are nothing without charity.


    From verses 4-7 Paul describes what charity is composed of in great detail leaving no Greek adjective unused. He wants Christians to understand charity, how to exhibit charity and understand that perfect charity never fails.


    Then we get to verse 8.


    Prophecy can fail, tongues can cease and knowledge can vanish away. Paul did not choose to randomly start revealing to the church at Corinth, in the middle of his discourse on charity, that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will all stop. Verse 8 cannot be read as if he is saying “all prophecy will fail, all tongues will cease, and all knowledge will vanish away.” That’s actually a ridiculous way to read it if you really think about it. You can’t make a case either way for whether these gifts will continue or cease because Paul didn’t have this topic in mind here.


    Paul is speaking in a general sense, and once again comparing these 3 things (prophecy, tongues, knowledge) to charity. Thus he is not giving a description of whether these three will continue on forever into eternity or whether they will end sometime soon. (This is a false choice. Either or fallacy.) Rather he is saying that these 3 are not to be considered superior to charity. They will fail, cease, or vanish without charity. He says nothing more, nothing less.


    I understand it this way:

    Prophecies can “fail” but perfect charity will not fail.

    Tongues can “cease” but perfect charity will not cease.

    Knowledge can “vanish away”, but perfect charity will not vanish away.


    He is not making a ruling on the cessation of gifts. Those gifts aren’t even the point of verse 8. Unfailing charity is the point.


    This notion is supported by the way Paul ends this teaching in verse 13 where he once again compares charity to two more important Christian concepts: faith and hope. The result of this is that he finds charity is superior to these as well. “The greatest of these is charity.”


    1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.


    1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


    1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


    1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


    Who is seeing face to face with Paul? I understand the glass to be a mirror. e.g. a looking glass. They had no other use for glass back then that people would be familiar with. They didn’t use it in windows! He is seeing his own reflection. Though it is a mirror, it is an imperfect mirror. (Good cheap mirrors are a relatively recent development.) He can only see through it “darkly” and his reflection is not clear. He’s basically setting up some symbolism for what he’s about to say regarding “that which is perfect”. We see charity dimly and imperfectly in this life but that will change on day.


    He says “but then shall I know”. The question is, “when”? When is he going to “know even as I am known?” I believe this is possibly a reference to being in heaven. This would fit the context because this is the only place we’re going to behold perfect charity. That he’s speaking of heaven can’t be stated conclusively but consider Paul’s words later in 2 Corinthians 5:


    2 Corinthians 5:6-76 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)


    In 2 Cor 5 he is saying that in the body we have to walk by faith, but when we die our faith is not needed because we will have sight. We’ll see Christ in heaven in person one day. We won’t see dimly with a poor mirror but clearly, face to face.


    Also to be “known even as I am known” calls to mind the mount of transfiguration where Moses and Elijah came to speak with Jesus. The Bible gives the impression that the two apostles there with Jesus recognized Moses and Elijah even though they would have never seen them before. The concept that we will know other people (strangers) in heaven even as we are known comes from this.


    1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


    So Paul tells the good pew-sitters at Corinth that:

    Charity is greater than all tongues. v1

    Charity is greater than prophecy. v2

    Charity is greater than knowledge. v2

    Charity is greater than faith. v2

    Charity is greater than feeding the poor. v3

    Charity is greater than being burned as a martyr. v3

    Charity is defined. v4-7

    Charity is greater than prophecy because… v8

    Charity is greater than tongues because… v8

    Charity is greater than all knowledge because… v8

    Charity will be perfect in heaven. (?) v9-12

    Charity is greater than faith. v13

    Charity is greater than hope. v13

    Charity is the greatest of all. V13


    Looking at it like this makes it really hard to cherry pick verse 8 to construct a doctrine.
     
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Wow. Your "friend" is remarkably ignorant.

    Chapter 13 comes right after Chapter 12 and just before Chapter 14.

    What is Chapter 12 about? Verse 1, Now concerning spiritual gifts.

    What is Chapter 14 about? Verse 1, Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts.

    Let's see. Paul was talking about spiritual gifts before Chapter 13, and he was talking about spiritual gifts after Chapter 13. What do you suppose he was talking about in Chapter 13?

    Oh, that's right. Spiritual gifts! And of those spiritual gifts, the only ones that will abide are faith, hope, and love. And he acknowledges that love is superior because it is the proper motive for exercising the other gifts until they cease along with the office of Apostle. He is probably looking at the chaos of Corinth where the church people were exercising their gifts selfishly for self edification with Christ's statement that the world will know the disciples of Christ because they love one another.

    Get your bible for your bible, not from a "friend" who proves his ignorance by his failure to understand what "context" means. :)
     
  4. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    So what did you disagree with?
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    It is a little-known but interesting fact that the two words charisma pneumatikon, 'Spiritual gift,' occur together only once in the New Testament, and they aren't where you might expect to find them. Nor is the 'spiritual gift' in question what one might expect it to be.

    See if you can find where it is. [hint: it's not in 1 Corinthians]
     
  6. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Romans 1:11
     
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes. The more common rendering is "πνευματικα," an adjective in the accusative case, but lacking the object it is modifying, so meaning, in this context, "one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God" - indicating those who have a spiritual gift governed by the Holy Spirit of God.
     
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  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    pneumatika - One who has a spiritual gift governed by the Holy Spirit of God.

    Yes
    James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
     
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  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Exactly so. I don't want to overstate the significance of this, but it's interesting that the spiritual gift which Paul was so eager to impart to the church at Rome appears to be the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:15).
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No you have not. Nor have you justified this popular misinterpretation of said text (v.8) ". . . All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever. Someday prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge—these gifts will disappear. . . ." -- The Living Bible (Paraphrase).

    I will point out again the following:
    (v.8) Two gifts are explicitly named to be "done away." (v.9)The same two gifts are referenced being in use and "in part." (v.10) Then what is "in part" is said to be what is "done away." Gifts from God are said to be "perfect" (James 1:17). And the Law of Liberty is said to be "perfect" (James 1:25). And the closing Revelation of Jesus Christ had not yet been written (Revelation 1:1).
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Apostle Paul switches from "we" to "I" (v.12) when he himself is "face to face" ;being present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). Which gives us a time frame of when "that which is perfect is come." It will be after the Apostle himself is with the Lord.
     
  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Right, because gifts won't be necessary to build up Paul in heaven ;)
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yet some of the gifts are understood to be currently operational. We no longer have these two gifts which were in part (v.10). We have the New Testament in their place.
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Still doesn't know what Synecdoche means. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Must be part of our "Gnostic" calvinism some accuse us as teaching!
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The explanation I gave is a denial of this Synecdoche argument. Prove the use of Synecdoche in v.8.
     
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