That Which Is Perfect

I am simply pointing out that WHEN you try to wrench the text of 1Cor 13 "When the Perfect comes" to mean "when the Word of God is finally Perfect" you get into a realm not supported by all of scripture.

Paul never says "the Gospel is not here yet because John has not finished writing".

Paul never says "the Perfect is not here because Scripture is not perfect".

No NT writer EVER used the terms in 1Cor 13 to APPLY to "the imperfect state of God's Word" as if there WAS such a thing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You are simply playing a game of semantics, mixing the modern meaning of Old English Words with their original meanings to deliberately confuse the reader.

Example: Paul says, Our conversation is in Heaven. Am I in heaven conversing with you? Who do I converse with in Heaven? Is there anyone (other than God) that I have conversations with in heaven?
Of course not. The meaning of "conversation" has changed. The word is found in Phil.3:20, where it ought to be translated "citizenship. My citizenship is in heaven, not my conversation. You don't tell your readers that the definition of "perfect" has changed since 1611, and thus what you have said is not true. Examine it.

The word "perfect" today means without error. But that is not what it meant 400 years ago, and that is not the meaning of the word in the Greek. So for you to take the modern meaning of the word perfect (without error), and use it's opposite, imperfect to imply with error, is unethical, dishonest, and wrong exegesis.

"Perfect" simply means "complete." When that which is "perfect" (complete) is come, then that which in part (temporary, not needed any more) shall be done away.
The Old Testament in Paul's time was perfect in the modern sense of the Word. It was inspired, infallible, and without error. But as far as the Bible, the completed canon of Scripture was concerned, Paul referred to it "as in part." We know in part." It was only "imperfect," if you will, in the sense that the Bible was not yet completed. The believers at that time did not have all the New Testament; in fact they had very little of it. That is why they were given the sign gifts mentioned in 1Cor.13:8, which is the subject being spoken of in this passage. The context is the revelation of God. It is not the Coming of Christ, or even Christ Himself.

We have this little problem here of a neuter pronoun. "When that which is perfect is come." "That" is a neuter pronoun and could not possibly refer to Christ or eve His Coming, all of which would be referred to with a masculine pronoun. The only thing it could possibly refer to is the Word of God. Context demands that it refers to the Word of God. James was written before 1Cor. James uses the same illustration in James 1:22ff. Scripture harmonizes with Scripture. When the perfected or completed Word of God is come, then that which is in part (the temporary gifts of 1Cor.13:8) shall be done away, as Paul promised that they would. Do you see yourself in the Word of God? I certainly do.
DHK

 

DHK:

There is no problem here. “when that which is perfect comes” for any Christian, including St. Paul, comes when we die. It is that time we are looking forward to. It is our completion (Jesus Christ face to face), not the Bible's. We will see clearly then.

God Bless

 

There is no problem here. “when that which is perfect comes” for any Christian, including St. Paul, comes when we die. It is that time we are looking forward to. It is our completion (Jesus Christ face to face), not the Bible's. We will see clearly then.

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Does that make sense?? Let's see.
When that (Kathryn), which is perfect, is come; then that which is in part will be done away.
So the spiritual gifts will be done away when you are made perfect, when you die? Or wait a minute, you are already here aren't you? Kathryn is come. Perfect means complete, remember. Are you complete, or is part of you missing? Let's try again.
When that (neuter pronuoun referring to Kathryn) is complete, then that which is in part (temporary spiritual gifts) will be done away. You must be a pretty special and unique kind of person.
DHK

 

DHK:

After we die, we will be complete 100% when we are reunited with our bodies. St. Paul is not fully complete or perfected yet, but he will be, just as all the saints will be.

God Bless

 

DHK:
St. Paul explains our coming perfection in Philippians also, and he is not talking about the Bible:


Philippians 3:1
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.

Philippians 3:2
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

Philippians 3:3
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Philippians 3:4
although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:

Philippians 3:5
circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Philippians 3:6
as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Philippians 3:7
But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

Philippians 3:8
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Philippians 3:10
that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

Philippians 3:11
in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

Philippians 3:16
however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

Philippians 3:18
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,

Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Philippians 3:20
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Philippians 3:21
who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


God Bless

P.S.

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

 

Philippians 3:10
that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

Philippians 3:11
in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Excellent point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote: Bob said -
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No NT writer EVER used the terms in 1Cor 13 to APPLY to "the imperfect state of God's Word" as if there WAS such a thing
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#1. I am not using a 400 year-old attempt to translate greek into English.

1Cor 13:10 NASB - from the 20th century -

10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.


#2.
The idea that-- Scripture of Paul's day is "the Partial" and is waiting to be "completed" is NOT a principle found in all of scripture.

Paul NEVER says the scriptures are "partial" OR that they are "not perfect" OR that "they are NOT complete" OR that "Spiritual Gifts are ONLY needed until John stops writing".

Every salient point in your argument - is without support in the text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

One thing at a time then.
"We know in part and we prophesy in part."
What does Paul mean when he says "We know in part?"

 

In 2Cor 5:7 Pauls tells us that until the day of the redemption of the body -- we "WALK by FAITH" not by sight in this life.

Romans 8 speaking more of that day - the redemption of the body - the day for which "we groan"


24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

There is no indication that this is a reference to "no hope once John stops writing scripture".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your logic is a bit askew. To imply that “perfect” only applies to believers is very poor hermeneutics indeed. The word “perfect” is used 99 times in 94 verses in the Bible, and they don’t all refer to the believer.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(James 1:25 KJV) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The Bible speaks of perfect peace, a perfect heart, perfect love, perfect gift, perfect work, perfect will of God, perfect man, and even perfect hatred. Understand the context before jumping to conclusions.
DHK

 

"When that which is perfect comes" is the Resurrection of the body.

Hebrews 10:11
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;

Hebrews 10:12
but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Hebrews 10:13
waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.


Looks like we who are sanctified will be perfected.

God Bless

 

I never said that it was a reference to "no hope once John stops writing Scripture," and I don't know anyone who did. So I ask you again, what did Paul mean when he said:
"We know in part," and we prophesy in part.
What does "We know in part" mean?
DHK

 

You have no evidence for this claim. The context of chapters 12,13 and 14 is spiritual gifts. Paul doesn't turn his attention to the resurrection until the fifteenth chapter. That is not what he is speaking of here. You must keep everything in its context. Why make wild guesses when the context of the chapter so clearly indicates to us what it means.

1Cor.13:8 mention 3 sign gifts of the spirit, all of which have to do with God's revelation to mankind--the Bible. The time of their cessation is discussed in the remaining verses and is set in comparison with the other gifts which are mentioned: faith, hope, and love. The discussion of spiritual gifts in relation to the Bible (God's revelation to mankind) is continued all the way through the entire fourteenth chapter. The context is the Word of God. No where is it speaking about the resurrection of the body in these chapters. You must look at the context.
DHK

 

The text shows - we know in part, we walk by faith NOT by sight, we live in HOPE and hope that is SEEN is NOT HOPE at all.

What is "not to get"?

How does the above get turned around into "We FULLY KNOW, we no longer know in part, but we FULLY know all things, walking by SIGHT not by FAITH because NOW we fully KNOW all".

You Just can't make that work -

In Christ,

Bob

 

The resurrection of the body is "explicit" in Romans 8 where we are told that we "are saved in hope and hope that is SEEN is NOT HOPE at all".

So in Heb 13 the SAME view "We KNOW IN PART" is expressed.

In 2Cor 5 the SAME view is given "We walk by FAITH NOT by sight" in fully harmony with "We KNOW IN PART".

They ALL reference the CURRENT condition of the church this side of glorification.

1Cor 12, 13, 14 ALL reference the CURRENT gifts of the Spirit and the CURRENT condition of the church this side of glorification. But 1Cor 13 anticipates the SAME focus as Romans 8, and 2Cor 5 and 1Cor 15 regarding the FUTURE when we no longer "walk by faith - but by sight", when we "no longer know IN PART - but THEN face to face" when we "no longer live in HOPE in what is NOT SEEN".

This is the easy part "to get".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

DHK:

"When that which is perfect comes" is the resurrection of the dead. That is when there is no need for all the other gifts of the Holy Spirit, but love, which will endure forever. For now we see through a glass darkly. That is when we will be made completely perfect and see face to face.

You ignored what St. Paul teaches in Philippians chapter 3 about us becoming completely perfect at the resurrection of the dead. Here is just a segment.

This is "when that which is perfect will come". Jesus Christ "will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory". This is "when that which is perfect comes" for us___the resurrection of the dead.

I realize you will never admit that "when that which is perfect comes" is not the Bible. You can say all you want that I have no proof, all one has to do is look at the Holy Scripture I have pointed out, where St. Paul himself explains when we will be made perfect. This is what St. Paul explained would happen to himself as well as all the saints.

I don't try to change your mind DHK. You are very predictable. I work through these things with you to learn and grow in the faith.

God Bless

 

I don't follow your logic at all. Perhaps that is because you are not giving me a direct answer to my question, but instead trying to refute previous posts.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Please confine your comments to these three verses for now. In verse 9 Paul says "we know in part." What precisely did he mean by that phrase?
DHK

 

Michael Horton in his critical review of ("Evangelicals and Catholics Together"), identifies corrupted translations as the major cause of the rift between Protestants and Catholics.

 

The "rift" is in doctrinal difference - not in translation problems. The same doctrinal differences can be found using the Duay Bible.

The non-RCC view is represented in that Bible - just as well as the NASB.

In Christ,

Bob