The ‘Rapture’ of Flight 370

[Protestant]

In watching news reports of the disappearance of Flight 370 these past weeks, I could not help but see a similarity with the prevalent view of the ‘Rapture’ doctrine held by many sincere Christians.

One day --- soon, they say --- true born-again Christians will disappear off the face of the Earth.

Like Flight 370, they will not leave a trace of their whereabouts behind.

Except, of course, for the numerous websites which will explain the Rapture to the uninitiated.

According to this popular theory held by those of the Futurist school of prophetic interpretation Christ will return in two-stages.

In stage 1 His return will be invisible, above the Earth.

His purpose: rescue His Church from The Great 7-year Tribulation instigated by a future unknown Antichrist.

To be fair, many Futurists hold to a mid-Trib Rapture.

A minority hold to a post-Trib Rapture.

There is much documentation Online as to the origin of these Rapture theories, so I need not detail the particulars here.

It should be mentioned, however, that these theories were unknown to the Christian Church until the 19th century.

Thus, for 1800 years the Church had not a clue that Christ was coming to rescue them from tribulation.

They had not a clue that Christ’s return was in 2-stages.

They had not a clue that the blessed martyrs were not quite as blessed as those Christians who would escape tribulation in the Rapture.

They had not a clue that enduring the extreme penalties imposed on them for centuries by decree of the ‘Christian’ Roman Catholic Church, all because they stood firm in their faith, would be surpassed by a ‘Great 7-year Tribulation’ imposed by a secular dictator in the last days.

They had not a clue that loss of all goods, including homes for which they worked hard, loss of personal freedom due to their imprisonment or restriction to certain boundaries, loss of freedom to buy and sell goods necessary for life and livelihood, loss of freedom to evangelize, loss of freedom to own, carry and teach the Bible, loss of assurance of freedom from harm by the religious and secular authorities who could arrest them at whim, loss of children who were slaughtered or taken captive, loss of family members due to imprisonment, never to be seen or heard from again, loss of life and limb by various cruel methods, including starvation, burning alive, strangulation, unimaginably cruel tortures, hanging, not to mention the severing of body parts by the sword……would be far surpassed by evils perpetrated during the 7-year Great Tribulation!

I ask the discerning, open-minded reader: What tribulation could be worse than that which has already happened to unknown multitudes of Christians…..all of which were ordained by 'sanctified, holy Christian men of God', who were and are today called ‘another Christ’ and the ‘Vicar of Christ'?

BTW, the sadistic victimizing of children by the Roman clergy has been ongoing for centuries. You can read of it in the extant Church Councils. You can read of it in their own histories. Such non-Christian satanic behavior is not limited to recent history.

This sordid truth was yet another reason why true Christians were disgusted and repulsed by the Roman Popes, priests, monks and friars.

Escape tribulation?

I believe the infallible words of our Lord:

In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

2-stage return?

I believe the infallible words of Scripture:

First comes Antichrist, then comes Christ.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, [The Day of the Lord's return in judgment], except there come a falling away first, [Apostasy of the professing Christian Roman Church], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [the Papal Antichrist, the Beast]

 

[Revmitchell]

It is not about escaping tribulation. It is about the wrath of God.

1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If in fact one believes that the tribulation period is in fact the wrath of God then you must also hold that the church will not be there.


If you are going to try to communicate someone else position then you need to make sure you understand it in full.

 

[Protestant]

It is not about escaping tribulation. It is about the wrath of God.

1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If in fact one believes that the tribulation period is in fact the wrath of God then you must also hold that the church will not be there.


If you are going to try to communicate someone else position then you need to make sure you understand it in full.

I have studied extensively the Futurist position. I have even attended Hal Lindsey's church in So. CA. You can't get more Futurist than that....fellowshipping with the man who brought Futurism into prominence in the evangelical Church. <grin>

The wrath and judgment of God has been and is presently being poured out on the world as well as on false Christians.

Why do you think the World Trade Center was brought down in such a way that even the slightest miscalculation on the part of the Terrorists would have stymied their plot?

The odds that they would successfully complete as much of their wicked mission as they did is astronomically small.

Our righteous, holy and angry God was behind its success.

Do you not discern that the lawful right to gay marriage sweeping our nation and other nations worldwide is a judgment of the wrath of our holy God?

Do you not discern the enormous popularity of a Joel Osteen and his army of false wonder-working prophets is a judgment of the wrath of our holy God?

Do you not discern that the ever-growing debt of our country -- with no end in sight -- is a catastrophe waiting to happen as a result of the judgment of the wrath of our holy God?

Do you not discern that legalized baby-killing is the judgment of the wrath of our holy God?

Do you not discern that the false religion called 'evolution' mandated to be taught as Gospel truth to our youth is the judgment of the wrath of our holy God?

Do you not discern that the ecumenical movement which embraces the Papal Antichrist and his harlot false Church as a legitimate 'expression' of Christianity is the judgment of the wrath of our holy God?

You, and I, my friend, are in the midst of God's many judgments of wrath.

I don't know about you, but I look on in disbelief with growing horror.

Our Lord promises not to take us out of the world but to 'keep us from the evil'.

His Elect will not be deceived, thus becoming partakers of the evil.

Paul promises great spiritual warfare and describes how to use the non-carnal spiritual weapons at our disposal to stand fast in the faith.

Jesus promises His disciples (past, present and future) will experience hatred and persecution. (John 15)

Jesus promises excommunication and death by fellow 'Christians' who, in their unregenerate, devilish minds believed they were simply following the Lord's directive to 'steal, kill and destroy.' (John 16)

Jesus promises not to leave us comfortless. He does not promise a bountiful, material, carefree existence as the Prosperity false prophets preach.

There is testimony of 11th century saints who joyfully went into the burning fire, glad to depart this evil world and be with Jesus forever.

The onlookers were amazed at their supernaturally calm demeanor.

They had no explanation for it.

I do. The Comforter was at work.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The wrath and judgment of God has been and is presently being poured out on the world as well as on false Christians.

How can you hold to that position in light of Christ's own words?

Luke 13, NASB
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."​

This firmly indicates that judgment is suspended until the time of the Tribulation. Certainly there is personal chastisement, but Katrina, 9/11, and any other catastrophe you want to try to credit to "the wrath of God," isn't.

Our righteous, holy and angry God was behind its success.

This is an utterly foolish, uninformed, godless statement.

Do you not discern that the lawful right to gay marriage sweeping our nation and other nations worldwide is a judgment of the wrath of our holy God?

No, we don't. We perceive that the garbage you've posted here is very near, if not outright, heretical.

... I look on in disbelief with growing horror.

Ironic, as that is exactly how I look at your unbiblical view. A supporter of the late, unlamented Fred Phelps, perhaps?

The Comforter was at work.

It is truly amazing that you don't see the dichotomy and irony of this statement. God help you. No need to reply. You'll be on "ignore" by the time your read this.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have studied extensively the Futurist position. I have even attended Hal Lindsey's church in So. CA. You can't get more Futurist than that....fellowshipping with the man who brought Futurism into prominence in the evangelical Church. <grin>

There is nothing you have said thus far that should leave one to believe that.

The wrath and judgment of God has been and is presently being poured out on the world as well as on false Christians.

This could not be more false and unbiblical. I suggest you do a study on the wrath of God. It would be a great help to you.

 

[DHK]

The wrath and judgment of God has been and is presently being poured out on the world as well as on false Christians.

And yet in some third world nations people are coming to Christ by the hundreds. God is not dead. It is not God's wrath I see, but God's Spirit being poured out in many areas of this world.

Why do you think the World Trade Center was brought down in such a way that even the slightest miscalculation on the part of the Terrorists would have stymied their plot?

Ethnocentrism at its best; the inability to look beyond one's own borders thinking he is in the best part of the world only because he lives there, and totally oblivious to what goes on in the rest of the world.

 

[Protestant]

How can you hold to that position in light of Christ's own words?

Luke 13, NASB
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."​

This firmly indicates that judgment is suspended until the time of the Tribulation. Certainly there is personal chastisement, but Katrina, 9/11, and any other catastrophe you want to try to credit to "the wrath of God," isn't.This is an utterly foolish, uninformed, godless statement.No, we don't. We perceive that the garbage you've posted here is very near, if not outright, heretical.Ironic, as that is exactly how I look at your unbiblical view. A supporter of the late, unlamented Fred Phelps, perhaps?It is truly amazing that you don't see the dichotomy and irony of this statement. God help you. No need to reply. You'll be on "ignore" by the time your read this.

Thank you, Disconnected, for your hateful diatribe.

Jesus forewarned His disciples would be hated by the world and the religious.

The fall of the Tower of Siloam could not have happened had the Lord not ordained it.

He also ordained who would be killed by its fall.

Does it upset you that God will be God and none can stay His hand or question why He does it?

Jesus was not denying that God caused the fall, and thereby the death of those who were killed.

Thus, you do err neither knowing the Scripture nor the power of God.

Jesus was denying that those who escaped injury were more righteous than those who died.

Furthermore, Jesus was using this event to warn all men that they, too, shall die, and not necessarily with knowledge that it will be imminent.

The moral lesson? Today is the day of salvation. There is no guarantee there will be another opportunity to hear the Gospel, and by believing be saved.

Nothing escapes the Lord's personal ordering and directing of all events in Heaven and Earth.

If one event could possibly happen without His direct decree and ordination, then He is no God.

More to the point, that which caused the event to happen without His express consent and permission is, in fact, the greater God.

For the information of the uninitiated, three of the essential attributes of our holy God is omnipotence, omniscience, and sovereignty.

Not only is He all-powerful, able to successfully manage the comings, goings, successes, failures, injuries and deaths of all His creatures, He is all-wise in knowing how, exactly, He should manage, as well as knowing precisely the outcome of all secondary causes.

His sovereignty over His creation declares nothing or no one has been His counsel when He planned, in eternity, every detail in minutiae, including the number of hairs on your head at any given time, the flight path of every bird, the exact moment of your first birth, the exact moment and method of your death, as well as every event, joyful, tearful or otherwise in your lifetime.

Despite the denial of many on this board, the very act of believing is God's ordained gift to His Elect, the blessed recipients of His effectual saving grace.

The Lord is sovereign over Satan who cannot harm one of God's people without His express permission.

The problem with the Phelps ministry is that it is not balanced.

It is true that God hates. Scripture declares it.

However, it is also true that God gladly and sincerely welcomes all repentant sinners.

Christ came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

It is one thing to identify sin.

It is another to point the sinner to the only Savior who can cleanse all sin by His blood.

This Westboro fails to do.

It is my prayer that 'Disconnected' become more 'connected' to the true God of the Bible.

 

[Protestant]

And yet in some third world nations people are coming to Christ by the hundreds. God is not dead. It is not God's wrath I see, but God's Spirit being poured out in many areas of this world.

DHK, you are one of the more sane, orthodox contributors to this forum.

I sincerely applaud and appreciate your thoroughly biblical stand on many important issues.

Re: God is not dead.

Please, oh please, find a quote in which I said 'God is dead.'

If not, an apology would be greatly appreciated.

I never once intimated that our Lord was not in the business of saving souls.

That was not stated anywhere in the OP.

The fact that our Lord could save by the power of His Spirit and preserve His Word even in the Dark Ages when true believers were but a persecuted and hunted remnant, is proof that He is able to save anyone anywhere at any time.

Ethnocentrism at its best; the inability to look beyond one's own borders thinking he is in the best part of the world only because he lives there, and totally oblivious to what goes on in the rest of the world.

Are all the other signs I mentioned also ethnocentrism?

 

[Protestant]

This could not be more false and unbiblical.

Whatever you say, 'Reverend.'

 

[DHK]

DHK, you are one of the more sane, orthodox contributors to this forum.

I sincerely applaud and appreciate your thoroughly biblical stand on many important issues.

Re: God is not dead.

Please, oh please, find a quote in which I said 'God is dead.'

If not, an apology would be greatly appreciated.

I never once intimated that our Lord was not in the business of saving souls.

That was not stated anywhere in the OP.

In Revelation 6-19 the Bible describes God's wrath being poured out against mankind without mercy. It is not mere "suffering," or just "tribulation," it is a time of "Great Tribulation," also called "Jacob's Trouble." It is a specific seven year period.
Jesus said, contrary to that:
"In the world you shall have persecution. Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
--In encouraging his disciples with those words, he also encourages us. He was not referring to "The Great Tribulation." He was referring to everyday trials and troubles.
Peter, in his first epistle, wrote to Christians who were undergoing intense persecution. He encourages them to endure suffering.
The writer of Hebrews is writing to discouraged Jewish Christians who had been through intense suffering so much so that they wanted to return back to Judaism. But it was not the Great Tribulation.
James, in his first chapter, writes about enduring trials. It will bring patience. It is not a bad thing. It is God's will.
Paul writing to the Philippians (1:29): Not only is it God's will for you to believe on His name but also to suffer for His sake.
--Suffering is the will of God for Christians. It is part of the Christian life.
Paul wrote to Timothy:
All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
If you are not suffering persecution perhaps you are not living a Godly life!!

IOW suffering and persecution in the Bible do not refer to the Great Tribulation. Only a few passages do. You use many passages that simply refer to everyday suffering that all of us should expect.

The fact that our Lord could save by the power of His Spirit and preserve His Word even in the Dark Ages when true believers were but a persecuted and hunted remnant, is proof that He is able to save anyone anywhere at any time.

First, true Biblical Christianity is always in the minority.
Second, much of our "Christian" history is recorded through the eyes of the RCC.
Third, because of the above reason there were probably more believers during those years than generally believed. In contrast, there are probably less believers among what is known as "Christianity" today, then what is generally believed.

Are all the other signs I mentioned also ethnocentrism?

The bombing of the WTC.
Judgment against gay marriages
The enormous popularity of a Joel Osteen,
and his army of false wonder-working prophets
The ever-growing debt of our country -- with no end in sight
The nation's legalized baby-killing
The false religion called 'evolution' mandated to be taught as Gospel truth to our youth
The ecumenical movement


All of the above are either signs or judgments that you mentioned that pertain to America. That is quite a list. There wasn't much else to see.



The Great Tribulation will be world wide in scope. Near the end of it, it will be concentrated in and around the land of Israel. When the nations or enemies of Israel come against her to destroy her, the Lord will come and defeat those nations at the Battle of Armageddon, and soon after establish His Kingdom.

 

[just-want-peace]

Was this guy not here AND banned not too long ago; at least the style is the same!?!?!?:sleep::sleep::sleep:

Different name, but same tactics!:thumbs:

 

[Protestant]

In Revelation 6-19 the Bible describes God's wrath being poured out against mankind without mercy. It is not mere "suffering," or just "tribulation," it is a time of "Great Tribulation," also called "Jacob's Trouble." It is a specific seven year period.

Is that your retraction of the 'God is dead' reference?

It is obvious you wish to place the Revelation in the future, having no relevance to Church history which includes the slaughter of your brothers and sisters in Christ and the Holy Ghost testimonies they gave.

That is your prerogative.

Unfortunately, your view does not line up with the view of those who have placed their lives on the line for centuries.

No Futurist martyrs exist who have been called, Blessed is he who dies in the Lord.

The problem with Futurist interpretation is that it is authoritatively declared as factual. In reality it is nothing less than imaginative speculation based upon assumption after assumption.

It has become a multi-million dollar industry preying on sincere, but gullible Christians to buy their products in order to better understand the many mysteries of prophecy.

A Christian's time would be much better spent studying the facts and indisputable evidence supplied by Church history.

Again, DHK, I do not think less of you as a Christian who has a strong grasp of essential biblical doctrines.

I simply do not believe you have taken the time and effort to study the Historicist position which is based on actual facts, not fancy or speculation.

There are numerous examples of the inconsistencies between Futurist doctrine and the Word of God.

For example, the 7-year Great Tribulation. I am assuming the secret Rapture takes place at the start? Or perhaps it takes place mid-Trib?

Either way, the Lord returns to Earth in final judgment at the end of the Tribulation. By simply calculating 7 years or 3 1/2 years into the future from the Rapture event, those remaining on Earth will know the time of the Lord's return.

But here is what the Scriptures say:

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Mind you, it is not for the disciples to know the times or the seasons, but, as Futurists teach, it is for those left behind by the Rapture to know the times or the seasons.

Let us also look at another Scripture:

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The Day of the Lord is the return of Christ in Judgment.

From it we can glean a few important truths:

1. Christ's return is sudden and unexpected.

2. It will be a time of peace on Earth, not a time of world-wide calamity.

3. True believers will not have been raptured years prior to His return.

4. They will be present when He returns.

5. They have nothing to fear because at that time they will experience the fullness of their salvation upon His return.

6. The wicked will experience the wrath of God -- the righteous judgment of God -- upon His return.

When the Lord returns it is those same Christians present who will be taken up to meet the Lord in the clouds, having been translated into their glorified bodies without experiencing death.

This truth Paul explains in the previous chapter.

If the Futurists are correct and there is a rapture occurring years prior to the Lord's return, then why does Paul, in the very next breath, assure Christians they have nothing to fear when the Lord returns?

 

[DHK]

Is that your retraction of the 'God is dead' reference?

My reference to "God is not dead," is to contrast your statement of doom and gloom of the present judgment of God and likening it to the Tribulation, to the fact that the Spirit of God is alive and well bringing souls unto Himself in many nations on this earth. To be more accurate: His work is not dead (as you imply), but very active, His Spirit actively calling those whom He will unto repentance.
This is not His time of judgment, but rather of grace and mercy. Judgment will indeed come; but it is not here yet.

It is obvious you wish to place the Revelation in the future, having no relevance to Church history which includes the slaughter of your brothers and sisters in Christ and the Holy Ghost testimonies they gave.

The last prayer of the Bible, written ca. 98 A.D. was: "Even so come Lord Jesus." John was expecting the Lord to return well after the destruction of Jerusalem.
The seven churches mentioned in Rev.2 and 3 are not symbolic periods of history, but rather literal churches that were present at that time in history. The best we can say about them is that the problems they had are representative of the problems that many of our churches have also. They are not representative of different eras or epochs of history.

Unfortunately, your view does not line up with the view of those who have placed their lives on the line for centuries.

Do you want statistics?
The fastest growing religion in the world today is Islam.
The largest religion in the world today is Islam.
Now "Christendom" makes up only one eighth of the world's population in the first place, and the Catholics are over half that number. The rest are lumped together as "Protestants," and not all of them are evangelical. In fact very few of those actually have a good understanding of the gospel--maybe 25 percent, if that.
What do those statistics say? The majority is not always right; in fact hardly ever right! Were you to depend on the Catholics for your interpretation of the Bible you would be out in left field most of the time, but they are the majority of "Christianity." I am not concerned about "majorities."

No Futurist martyrs exist who have been called, Blessed is he who dies in the Lord.

That is because the future martyr has not been martyred yet.

The problem with Futurist interpretation is that it is authoritatively declared as factual. In reality it is nothing less than imaginative speculation based upon assumption after assumption.

There are no assumptions here. It is a comparison of Scriptures. Study to show yourselves approved unto God..

It has become a multi-million dollar industry preying on sincere, but gullible Christians to buy their products in order to better understand the many mysteries of prophecy.

That is a ridiculous statement to make. I have never made a penny for preaching the Word of God. I wonder if John Gill did made any money through his books?

A Christian's time would be much better spent studying the facts and indisputable evidence supplied by Church history.

The Bible is a history book to some degree. But it records past history, not the history of the middle ages and the medieval period.

Again, DHK, I do not think less of you as a Christian who has a strong grasp of essential biblical doctrines.

I simply do not believe you have taken the time and effort to study the Historicist position which is based on actual facts, not fancy or speculation.

Most of the historicist position is based on allegory and speculation; not the futurist position. You are confused. I don't speculate.

There are numerous examples of the inconsistencies between Futurist doctrine and the Word of God.

I don't find any.

For example, the 7-year Great Tribulation. I am assuming the secret Rapture takes place at the start? Or perhaps it takes place mid-Trib?

I am pre-trib.

Either way, the Lord returns to Earth in final judgment at the end of the Tribulation. By simply calculating 7 years or 3 1/2 years into the future from the Rapture event, those remaining on Earth will know the time of the Lord's return.

Those on earth will not know. They will be unbelievers despising the Word of the Lord and its Author. Believers will be in heaven. The exact day of the end of The Tribulation is not given.

But here is what the Scriptures say:

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

They were too taken up with the kingdom. That was a rebuke to the disciples. They had more important things to be concerned with. Look at verse 8. Their task was the Great Commission.

Mind you, it is not for the disciples to know the times or the seasons, but, as Futurists teach, it is for those left behind by the Rapture to know the times or the seasons.

The times and seasons just may refer to the rapture, or that entire time period.

Let us also look at another Scripture:

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

All of this points to the pre-trib rapture. We are not appointed to wrath. We know not when Christ is coming. He will come as a thief in the night. It all points to the rapture.

The Day of the Lord is the return of Christ in Judgment.

The OT "Day of the Lord" was used more in a time period, not as in a specific day. It would include The Tribulation. I believe the reference is the same here.

From it we can glean a few important truths:

1. Christ's return is sudden and unexpected.

2. It will be a time of peace on Earth, not a time of world-wide calamity.

3. True believers will not have been raptured years prior to His return.

4. They will be present when He returns.

5. They will experience the fullness of their salvation upon His return.

6. The wicked will experience the wrath of God -- the righteous judgment of God -- upon His return.

When the Lord returns it is those present who will be taken up to meet the Lord in the clouds, having been translated into their glorified bodies without experiencing death.

This truth Paul explains in the previous chapter.

If the Futurists are correct and there is a rapture occurring years prior to the Lord's return, then why does Paul, in the very next breath, assure Christians they have nothing to fear when the Lord returns?

You are combining two events. They need to be separated in a timeline. Otherwise you will remain confused.

 

[shodan]

The secret "rapture" doctrine is built on men's imaginations not on exegesis of Scripture. http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The secret "rapture" doctrine is built on men's imaginations not on exegesis of Scripture. http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/

Don't stop there. I'm sure you have links to other websites that deny Biblical truth.

 

[Protestant]

The secret "rapture" doctrine is built on men's imaginations not on exegesis of Scripture. http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/

So true. Imagination and Eisegesis are the principles used in teaching a 2-stage Return of Christ separated by 7 years.

Tragically, this teaching is the 'norm' in too many so-called 'evangelical' churches.

One wonders why, if this teaching was true, that Christians are even warned in the Scriptures of the coming Antichrist since they allegedly will not be here to deal with him.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So true. Imagination and Eisegesis are the principles used in teaching a 2-stage Return of Christ separated by 7 years.

Tragically, this teaching is the 'norm' in too many so-called 'evangelical' churches.

One wonders why, if this teaching was true, that Christians are even warned in the Scriptures of the coming Antichrist since they allegedly will not be here to deal with him.

OK, we're going to make this simple for you so it's not difficult to follow. Is that good?

Mark 13, NASB
26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven."​

Got that? Good, please try to keep up, and commit that to your it mind.

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled , but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.​

See that? "I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle ... " Sound familiar? You might recognize it from this New Testament passage.

Revelation 16
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.​

Notice several things. First, the Mark 13 passage says nothing that resembles the passage I quoted from Zechariah or Revelation. Particularly, the Mark passage states that Jesus will appear in the clouds and send out His angels to call His church out of the world. Secondly, Nothing is said of "His elect" immediately going to battle with Him. In fact, Jesus the second parable of a fig tree, to explain what He has just said, in the context of the end times.

Third, In the Zechariah prophecy, Jesus descends to stand on the Mount of Olives, and it splits in two. Revelation 19 tells of His conquering of the world's armies at Jerusalem and on the Plain of Har-Megedon after this event. This varies widely from the Mark account. They are two separate events, the first in Mark being the Rapture, the second found in Zechariah, referenced in Daniel and described in detail through the latter half of Revelation.

You deny biblical truth in your statement above. That is not a good thing, just in case you weren't aware.

 

[Protestant]

My reference to "God is not dead," is to contrast your statement of doom and gloom of the present judgment of God

So the Lord is pleased with this wonderful world and has said nothing, nor done nothing to show His eternal displeasure?

and likening it to the Tribulation

We Americans face no tribulation. We are fat cats who bask in our glory. We worry not about Antichrist and his army of false prophets because we will be raptured and taken to safety before he can harm us.

But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

the fact that the Spirit of God is alive and well bringing souls unto Himself in many nations on this earth.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Do you believe in the election of grace? I certainly pray so.

To be more accurate: His work is not dead (as you imply), but very active, His Spirit actively calling those whom He will unto repentance.

'Whom He will?' I perceive a Calvinistic leaning which, if not repented of, will most certainly result in the wrath and judgment of your less tolerant free-will brethren.

This is not His time of judgment, but rather of grace and mercy. Judgment will indeed come; but it is not here yet.

Final Judgment is the 2nd Coming of Christ, the Day of the Lord.

The last prayer of the Bible, written ca. 98 A.D. was: "Even so come Lord Jesus." John was expecting the Lord to return well after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Right. I am no Preterist.

The seven churches mentioned in Rev.2 and 3 are not symbolic periods of history, but rather literal churches that were present at that time in history. The best we can say about them is that the problems they had are representative of the problems that many of our churches have also. They are not representative of different eras or epochs of history.

Right. There are several proofs that that is so. Most Futurists would not agree with you, though.

Do you want statistics?
The fastest growing religion in the world today is Islam.
The largest religion in the world today is Islam.
Now "Christendom" makes up only one eighth of the world's population in the first place, and the Catholics are over half that number. The rest are lumped together as "Protestants," and not all of them are evangelical. In fact very few of those actually have a good understanding of the gospel--maybe 25 percent, if that.
What do those statistics say? The majority is not always right; in fact hardly ever right! Were you to depend on the Catholics for your interpretation of the Bible you would be out in left field most of the time, but they are the majority of "Christianity." I am not concerned about "majorities."

I, too, am not interested in argumentum ad populum.

I am, however, interested in what TRUE CHRISTIANS, who underwent severe persecution and even gave their lives in the battle with Antichrist, had to say.

They are ALL in agreement.

Either they were all deceiving liars or they were all telling the truth.

If they were liars, then they were of Antichrist, who is of his father, the father of lies.

That is because the future martyr has not been martyred yet.

Many have been martyred in recent history. Yet none of them testified to a new, hitherto unknown Antichrist.

There are no assumptions here. It is a comparison of Scriptures. Study to show yourselves approved unto God..

Scripture is not the infallible test as to the how exactly the future is going to unfold.

Its fulfillment in history is the answer as to how exactly that prophecy has come to pass.

Not one of the prophets of old or the angels understood exactly how the Messiah was going to fulfill all the prophecies.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently , who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what , or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify , when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow .

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

That is a ridiculous statement to make.

Left Behind series has sold more than 63 million copies. I believe that qualifies Futurist Pastor Tim LaHaye as a multi-zillionaire who preys on the ignorant and feeble-minded.

I have never made a penny for preaching the Word of God.

The question has nothing to with preaching the Gospel. The question regards preaching the false doctrines of Futurism and from that fiction becoming extremely wealthy.

The Bible is a history book to some degree.

The Bible is the history of redemption through Christ as well as the history of His blood bought Church and the tribulations and trials they could expect, as well as who they could expect them from.

It begins in eternity and ends in eternity.

There are no gaps in the Bible.

But it records past history, not the history of the middle ages and the medieval period.

You have just made fast friends with the Pope and Roman Catholic Church.

Please cite 2 authoritative sources who agree with your assessment.

Most of the historicist position is based on allegory and speculation; not the futurist position. You are confused. I don't speculate.

Oh really? Then who is the Antichrist and who is Mystery Babylon?

Believers will be in heaven.

Such a shame that millions of martyred believers of the past never had the blessing and favor with God as do the present day tribulation-free fat cat Christians who are destined to escape all those nasty and uncomfortable persecutions, tortures, and murders to come.

The exact day of the end of The Tribulation is not given.

I'll give you a hint. If, for example, they disappear on New Year's Day count forward 7 years.

 

[Protestant]

I suggest you do a study on the wrath of God. It would be a great help to you.

It is not a difficult study.

I will simplify the study for you, 'Reverend.'

1. All men are, by nature, born children of wrath. (Eph.2)

2. All unbelievers are continually under the wrath of God. (John 3)

3. Not all unbelievers will remain under the wrath of God because according to the eternal free grace and sovereign will of God some will experience His love, mercy and compassion. They are called ‘vessels of mercy.’ All Christians are vessels of mercy. (Romans 9; 1 John 4; John 3:16)

4. Other unbelievers will remain in their sin, unrepentant. God will not intervene to change their wicked wills to conform to His. These are called ‘vessels of wrath’.

5. Many times the vessels of wrath have not a clue they are doomed to perdition. The rich fool whose soul was unexpectedly required of him is but one example. The Pope who experiences the honor and worship of the hordes worldwide is another example.

Christians who have the Holy Spirit have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:16)

They understand nothing takes place on the planet without the Lord God decreeing it come to pass.

Thus, no nation, no building, no plane, no bird can fall without the Father’s decree.

As discerning Christians we should be able to have a good sense as to the nature of the major events which providence brings to pass.

Is it a sign of God’s blessing when homosexuality is affirmed as a normal expression of the human condition, worthy of marital status?

Or is it a sign of God’s judgment on the nation which turns its back on God?

Is it a sign of God’s blessing that false prophets, false theologies, and false eschatologies abound tickling the ears of the weak and false professing Christians?

Or is it a sign of God’s judgment that He sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness?

 

[DHK]

So the Lord is pleased with this wonderful world and has said nothing, nor done nothing to show His eternal displeasure?

Can a finite mind understand the mind of an infinite God?
Every man shall give account of himself to God: the believer at the judgment seat of Christ (1Cor.3:11-15) [in heaven during the time of The Tribulation], and the unbeliever at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:11-15) [at the end of the 1000 year Kingdom Rule of Christ].
The Lord is never pleased with sin, not yours; not mine. If he were to judge all sin immediately there would be no one living on this earth. Thank Him for His grace and mercy.

We Americans face no tribulation. We are fat cats who bask in our glory. We worry not about Antichrist and his army of false prophets because we will be raptured and taken to safety before he can harm us.

That is not true. Right now you live under the rule of one of the most anti-Christian leaders in history. Your rights are being eroded before your eyes. The sad thing about it is that most of you (Bible-believing Christians) either no nothing about, are apathetic, don't care enough to do anything about it, and even in your own nation (as you have quoted) "have waxed fat, and kicked...art waxen fat, art grown thick, art covered with fatness, forsaken God." Maybe that is an apt verse. You decide:

Franklin Graham: Some Administration Officials Are 'Anti-Christ' - CNS News
Some of the people working in the Obama administration and in the White House are trying to "completely secularize our military" and are "hostile to Christians," to the point that they "are anti-Christ in what they say and in what they do," said Christian evangelist Franklin Graham, the son of world-renowned preacher Rev. Billy Graham.

Vatican Chief Justice: Obama's Policies 'Have Become Progressively More Hostile Toward Christians - CBS News
The Vatican's chief justice feels that President Barack Obama's policies have been hostile toward Christians.

Sotomayor, Kagan: Hobby Lobby Should Drop Insurance, Pay Penalty and Let Employees Use Exchange - CNS News
During oral arguments in the U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday which focused on whether the contraceptive mandate in the Affordable Care Act violates the free exercise of religion, Justices Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan suggested employers who have moral objections to birth control should not provide health care coverage for their employees.

Air Force Academy removes Bible verse from cadet's whiteboard - Fox News
The Air Force Academy removed a Bible verse posted on a cadet's whiteboard after it determined the posting had offended other cadets, a spokesman for the academy said.

I could add a lot more. The first three are from March 26 and the last one is from March 14, 2014, Worthy News. There has never been a time in America's history when so much of their religious freedom has been eroded as there is right now.

Do you believe in the election of grace? I certainly pray so.

I am not a Calvinist if that is what you are asking.
My statement was:
"the fact that the Spirit of God is alive and well bringing souls unto Himself in many nations on this earth."
--I find your statement as irrelevant to what I was saying.

'Whom He will?' I perceive a Calvinistic leaning which, if not repented of, will most certainly result in the wrath and judgment of your less tolerant free-will brethren.

I said:
"To be more accurate: His work is not dead (as you imply), but very active, His Spirit actively calling those whom He will unto repentance. "
This is in response to the oft heard attitude of the Calvinist that God and man are both dead unless it is predestined from the beginning. Why do anything at all? All is fore-ordained. Both your hands are tied and so are God's if all is already predestined. It is a type of fatalism.
--My belief is as far from Calvinism as one can get. I am not the one that needs to repent.

Final Judgment is the 2nd Coming of Christ, the Day of the Lord.

There is a time called "Daniel's Seventieth Week," a week of years or seven years of tribulation--God pouring out his wrath on this earth such as has never been seen before nor will be seen thereafter. It is also be called Jacob's Trouble and The Great Tribulation. You glibly say that we have been in that period for some time now. How wrong you are. There is a final judgment coming. It will be at the end of that Great Tribulation. But it is not now, as I said, and you have said.

I, too, am not interested in argumentum ad populum.

I am, however, interested in what TRUE CHRISTIANS, who underwent severe persecution and even gave their lives in the battle with Antichrist, had to say.

They are ALL in agreement.

Either they were all deceiving liars or they were all telling the truth.

If they were liars, then they were of Antichrist, who is of his father, the father of lies.

My point with the statistics is simply this: The majority is rarely right.
It was Jesus who said to his own disciples: "In the world you shall have tribulation but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
--That verse applies to us as much as it did to them. We are not in The Tribulation and neither were they.
No one has ever done battle with the Antichrist, for he has not appeared yet. His appearance is yet to come. When he does come I will not be here. Thus I am not concerned about it.
What Christians said in the past about eschatology was often sensational and speculative. They interpreted the Bible according to the times they lived in.
Some said Mussolini was the Antichrist, and some said Hitler. But we both know those are now not true.
Some said it was Saddam Hussein; or Osama Ben Laden. But they too have come and gone.
Harold Camping made his share of prophecies--failed.
It is wise to stay away from speculation and allow the Bible to do the speaking. It doesn't speak authoritatively on any one person.

Many have been martyred in recent history. Yet none of them testified to a new, hitherto unknown Antichrist.

Obviously. The Bible is not that specific. If someone does so prophecy, we know that person will be a false prophet.

Scripture is not the infallible test as to the how exactly the future is going to unfold.

Its fulfillment in history is the answer as to how exactly that prophecy has come to pass.

This is where you have gone off the rails. You have left the Word of God.
Study Isaiah 8:20 carefully.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--There is a serious warning here.
--The truth does not lie in history; but in the Word of God, which is our final authority.

Not one of the prophets of old or the angels understood exactly how the Messiah was going to fulfill all the prophecies.

They didn't have to understand; they simply had to write what God told them to write.

Left Behind series has sold more than 63 million copies. I believe that qualifies Futurist Pastor Tim LaHaye as a multi-zillionaire who preys on the ignorant and feeble-minded.

And so? This is a non-sequitor.
I am sure John MacArthur and others with good ministries have made quite a bit of money also. Making money is not wrong. It is how one uses the money that becomes the question in hand.

The question has nothing to with preaching the Gospel. The question regards preaching the false doctrines of Futurism and from that fiction becoming extremely wealthy.

First, futurism is not a false doctrine.
Second, prove from Scripture that having wealth is a sin.
Was Solomon in sin because of his wealth?

The Bible is the history of redemption through Christ as well as the history of His blood bought Church and the tribulations and trials they could expect, as well as who they could expect them from.

It begins in eternity and ends in eternity.

There are no gaps in the Bible.

Then why don't we have a full and complete continuum of history? Why are there so many "gaps" in our history books even just from the time of Christ? And the time before Christ, that time is simply full of great spans of history that are missing (gaps). Or are you a "gnostic" that knows it all?