The ‘Rapture’ of Flight 370

[prophet]

You are correct. It also doesn't make your belief true.

The bottom line: What saith the Scriptures?



Should truth be measured by popular vote?



No wonder. Scofield’s Futurist Reference Bible was first published in 1909. He is the Granddaddy of modern Futurism. The internet has much material on the origin of the ‘secret’ Rapture in the 19th century.

The Azusa Street Revival began in 1906. Did Torrey and his contributors also approve ‘speaking in tongues and the perpetuity of miracles?’



It is not difficult to prove universal negatives.

For example, Jesus used universal negatives regularly.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus teaches the universal truth with respect to man’s absolute inability to come to Christ by faith, thereby denying man’s ‘free will’ to please God.

This is a universal negative. No man can come to faith in Christ by his own power or by his own will.

This is but one of innumerable Scriptures which support the view of man’s depraved nature from birth.

Because of which all men are already under the wrath of God.

Incredibly, not all professing Christians believe Christ’s teaching.

Do you?

Re: Rapture not taught in the Church for 1800 years.

You would have me interview all professing Christians who lived during the last 1800 years to prove not one believed in the secret Rapture theory.

I, on the other hand, simply asked you to find 2 recognized and respected Christian leaders in the Church during that time frame who believed as you do.

I ask the reader, Which of us is being unreasonable?

Besides, your citing the Bible as your witness is assuming the very thing which is in contention.



I will let Professor Peter Gentry answer your Daniel exegesis. He is your fellow Canadian Baptist who is currently Professor of Old Testament Interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Prior to this, he served on the faculty of Toronto Baptist Seminary and Bible College for fifteen years and taught at the University of Toronto, Heritage Theological Seminary, and Tyndale Theological Seminary:



http://www.sbts.edu/resources/files/2010/05/sbjt_v14_n1_gentry.pdf



DHK, listen to yourself……”The first resurrection takes place at the Rapture.”

Of course it does. There are only two resurrections. That truth you comprehend correctly.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

However, you neglect to understand that that first resurrection unto life happens at the end of the Age upon Christ’s Second Coming at the last trump. It does not occur 7 years prior to the end of the Age.

At that time the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the translation of the saints alive on Earth. Both groups will then receive their glorified bodies.

But that is not all: Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul preaches the end of death upon Christ’s return at the end of the Age.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, [dead rise first, and receive glorified bodies] and this mortal shall have put on immortality, [translation of the saints alive who receive glorified bodies] then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The first resurrection is the end of death.

But the Revelation is replete with narratives of persecution and martyrdom of true Christians. Death is still very much a reality. Need I cite those Scriptures again?

Therefore, the first resurrection and Rapture cannot have occurred before the 2nd Coming of Christ at the very end of the Age....at the very end of the Revelation.

This event we see portrayed vividly in Chapter 19. He comes once, visibly, with might and majesty.

Satan is bound and the Millennium is ushered in.

Can you not see the contradictions between the confused teaching of Futurism and the plain, consistent testimony of Scripture which cannot lie?

Darby, in defense of his own skewed eschatological views, denied the Vicarious nature of Christ's Sacrifice, and the imputation of His Righteousness.

Then he, like the J.W.'s, had to eventually come up with his own Bible Versión.

 

[DHK]

I was looking for a Scripture quote that says : "7 years of wrath".

That seven year period is described in Revelation 6 through 19. Anyone can see that it is God pouring out his wrath on mankind. It, by its own admission, has two periods of 3 1/2 years. I'll let you search it out. Look for the other terms as well: 42 months, 1,260 days, "times, time, and half a time," all referring to 3 1/2 years--the two halves of the seven year period of Tribulation. The two witnesses of Rev.11 prophesy for half the Tribulation period (42 months) for example.

 

[DHK]

You are correct. It also doesn't make your belief true.
The bottom line: What saith the Scriptures?

I believe I have studied it enough to know what the Bible says.

No wonder. Scofield’s Futurist Reference Bible was first published in 1909. He is the Granddaddy of modern Futurism. The internet has much material on the origin of the ‘secret’ Rapture in the 19th century.

You should take this discussion up with TCassidy.
I believe he refutes you here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2100061&postcount=192

Premillenialism, or Chiliasim originated with the Church Fathers, not with Darby. You have your facts wrong. There is currently a discussion on this in another forum. Perhaps you should participate in it.

The Azusa Street Revival began in 1906. Did Torrey and his contributors also approve ‘speaking in tongues and the perpetuity of miracles?’

You would do well to read Torrey's voluminous work and find out for yourself. The short answer is: No.

It is not difficult to prove universal negatives.

Evidently you do not have an understanding of what a universal negative is. Jesus did not use them. He was not an illogical buffoon. Don't make him out to be one.

For example, Jesus used universal negatives regularly.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus teaches the universal truth with respect to man’s absolute inability to come to Christ by faith, thereby denying man’s ‘free will’ to please God.

This is a universal negative. No man can come to faith in Christ by his own power or by his own will.

Absolute silliness.
If I say: No man can gain my inheritance by those who are my children, or
No man can come to me except I invite them,
Are they universal negatives?
NO! not in the least way!
Note the clause: "except the Father...draw him." That negates it from being a universal negative. Furthermore, it is not worded as a universal negative. It could be re-worded: "Only those that are able to come to me are the ones that I call." Now there is no negative at all.
--What you stated is something completely different--a statement which cannot be demonstrated or proved.
It is akin to the atheist's statement: "There is no God." How does he know? Can he prove it? Has he looked in every corner of the earth? On every planet of the solar system, On every star of the galaxy? In every galaxy of the universe? Of course not. Thus the statement: "There is no God," both universal in scope and a negative, is impossible to prove.

This is but one of innumerable Scriptures which support the view of man’s depraved nature from birth.

Because of which all men are already under the wrath of God.

Incredibly, not all professing Christians believe Christ’s teaching.

Do you?

I believe the Bible; not you. Incredibly, you have put your opinion on par with the statements of the inspired Word of God, making yourself God or claiming deity.
First, we know that all men are sinners because the Bible makes that statement.
Second, it is a statement of fact, not a universal negative.
Third, your statement is not God's statement, not inspired, not Biblical, and it is foolish, and illogical. It is a universal negative that cannot be proven--nonsensical.

Re: Rapture not taught in the Church for 1800 years.

Did you go back through each and every 1800 years of history and check every history book and check or interview every person that ever lived for those 1800 years. If you haven't, then you can't possibly make that statement "was not taught for 1800 years." You don't know that, and cannot possibly know that.
That is the illogical position of your statement that you fail to see.

You would have me interview all professing Christians who lived during the last 1800 years to prove not one believed in the secret Rapture theory.

If you are going to prove your premise to be true you would have to. You have no other choice.
If I say: "All the members of my family believe in the rapture," then I can simply ask "all the members of my family" and be done with it. I have narrowed my scope.
But you have included all the world or at least all of Christendom that ever lived during a span of 1800 years! How do you know that every single person during that period of time did not believe in the rapture. As JOJ said of his father: "He came to believe by his own personal study." I am sure that many others have as well.

I, on the other hand, simply asked you to find 2 recognized and respected Christian leaders in the Church during that time frame who believed as you do.

Prove your own premise. I am not going to do your homework for you. That is your obligation. You made the statement. You prove it.

Besides, your citing the Bible as your witness is assuming the very thing which is in contention.

The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice.
Paul commended the Bereans for the very thing I am doing:
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--It is apparent by this post that you have no Biblical answer to give.

I will let Professor Peter Gentry answer your Daniel exegesis. He is your fellow Canadian Baptist who is currently Professor of Old Testament Interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Prior to this, he served on the faculty of Toronto Baptist Seminary and Bible College for fifteen years and taught at the University of Toronto, Heritage Theological Seminary, and Tyndale Theological Seminary:

It is foolish to think that all prophecy has been fulfilled and that we are now living in the Kingdom of God. If this is your kingdom, I want no part of it.

DHK, listen to yourself……”The first resurrection takes place at the Rapture.”

Of course it does. There are only two resurrections. That truth you comprehend correctly.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

However, you neglect to understand that that first resurrection unto life happens at the end of the Age upon Christ’s Second Coming at the last trump. It does not occur 7 years prior to the end of the Age.

Not according to Rev.20:1-4

At that time the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the translation of the saints alive on Earth. Both groups will then receive their glorified bodies.

Before the Tribulation begins.

But that is not all: Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul preaches the end of death upon Christ’s return at the end of the Age.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, [dead rise first, and receive glorified bodies] and this mortal shall have put on immortality, [translation of the saints alive who receive glorified bodies] then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The first resurrection is the end of death.

The first resurrection is the rapture. Death simply refers to those Christians who have already died before that time.

But the Revelation is replete with narratives of persecution and martyrdom of true Christians. Death is still very much a reality. Need I cite those Scriptures again?

It is replete with persecution of the Jews, to be specific, who as a nation will turn to Christ when he comes for them.

Therefore, the first resurrection and Rapture cannot have occurred before the 2nd Coming of Christ at the very end of the Age....at the very end of the Revelation.

You are ignoring Rev.20:1-4

This event we see portrayed vividly in Chapter 19. He comes once, visibly, with might and majesty.

If the rapture had not occurred seven years earlier, how did the "saints" get into heaven in order to come with Christ at his second Coming. Note "the armies" that come with him. They are more than just angels. Read the account carefully.

Satan is bound and the Millennium is ushered in.

Can you not see the contradictions between the confused teaching of Futurism and the plain, consistent testimony of Scripture which cannot lie?

No confusion in dispensationalism. What you have presented to me is full of confusion; an assumption of facts not in existence; a premise that cannot be proven; and ignored facts in the Bible.

 

[prophet]

That seven year period is described in Revelation 6 through 19. Anyone can see that it is God pouring out his wrath on mankind. It, by its own admission, has two periods of 3 1/2 years. I'll let you search it out. Look for the other terms as well: 42 months, 1,260 days, "times, time, and half a time," all referring to 3 1/2 years--the two halves of the seven year period of Tribulation. The two witnesses of Rev.11 prophesy for half the Tribulation period (42 months) for example.

Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Try again.

 

[DHK]

Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Try again.

MacArthur believes in a seven year Tribulation.
Concerning Dan.12:12 he says: "45 more days, even beyond the 1290 days, allows for transition between Israel's time of being shattered (vs.7) and God's setting up of Kingdom (7:13,14,127)."
The 30 days of verse 11 he be believes could possibly refer to time needed to allow for the judgment of the living subsequent to Christ's return (Mat.24:29-31l 155:31-46) before the Millennial Kingdom.

Walvoord and Zuck refer to it as an additional 45 days beyond the 1290 days. 45 days after the end of the Tribulation, Israel's long awaited-blessing will be realized. This may mark the blessing of the Millennium; or it may be when Christ. who will have appeared in the heavens (Mat.25:30), will actually descend to earth, His feet touching on the Mount of Olives. For believers Christ's coming is a blessing and glorious hope.
--There are different explanations for Dan.12:11,12, none of which cause any problem for one believing in the pre-trib position. You can do some study on your own for this position.

 

[prophet]

MacArthur believes in a seven year Tribulation.
Concerning Dan.12:12 he says: "45 more days, even beyond the 1290 days, allows for transition between Israel's time of being shattered (vs.7) and God's setting up of Kingdom (7:13,14,127)."
The 30 days of verse 11 he be believes could possibly refer to time needed to allow for the judgment of the living subsequent to Christ's return (Mat.24:29-31l 155:31-46) before the Millennial Kingdom.

Walvoord and Zuck refer to it as an additional 45 days beyond the 1290 days. 45 days after the end of the Tribulation, Israel's long awaited-blessing will be realized. This may mark the blessing of the Millennium; or it may be when Christ. who will have appeared in the heavens (Mat.25:30), will actually descend to earth, His feet touching on the Mount of Olives. For believers Christ's coming is a blessing and glorious hope.
--There are different explanations for Dan.12:11,12, none of which cause any problem for one believing in the pre-trib position. You can do some study on your own for this position.

So it not actually being 7 years, exactly, doesnt cause any problems?

Why study at all, if you really dont care?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So it not actually being 7 years, exactly, doesnt cause any problems?

No, since it was given via the Hebrew calendar, which is the calendar John knew. It was exactly seven years under that calendar. Note, it spoke of number of days, not number of years, specifically, anyway. That way, the transition to the Julian calendar was made easier.

Why study at all, if you really dont care?

He didn't say he didn't care. He said "you can do some study on it" so you will actually understand the teaching -- which, at this point, you don't.

 

[Alcott]

For that plane, it was more likely a rupture than a rapture.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

How can you hold to that position in light of Christ's own words?

Luke 13, NASB
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."​

This firmly indicates that judgment is suspended until the time of the Tribulation. Certainly there is personal chastisement, but Katrina, 9/11, and any other catastrophe you want to try to credit to "the wrath of God," isn't.This is an utterly foolish, uninformed, godless statement.No, we don't. We perceive that the garbage you've posted here is very near, if not outright, heretical.Ironic, as that is exactly how I look at your unbiblical view. A supporter of the late, unlamented Fred Phelps, perhaps?It is truly amazing that you don't see the dichotomy and irony of this statement. God help you. No need to reply. You'll be on "ignore" by the time your read this.

So is your number disconnected in my little black book, old chap, first and last time henceforth.

Protestant, PROTEST so they shall have no excuse.

If the twin towers came not down straight, but fell sidelong, it would not be God's Providence?

O the spirit-obsessed-selves!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This event we see portrayed vividly in Chapter 19. He comes once, visibly, with might and majesty.

Satan is bound and the Millennium is ushered in.

Revelation consists of chiasms which are not in unbroken linear order, but in paired parallels. That is why....

First, Christ resurrects, Satan is bound and "this The First Resurrection Thousand Years" is ushered in.

Next, Christ comes again, once, visibly, with might and majesty and all that are in the grave are resurrected.

But your post is refreshingly 'Protestant' and I really appreciate!

Refer:

http://www.biblestudents.co.za/docs/html/Resurrection Saints and Wicked.htm

 

[Protestant]

Protestant said:

But that is not all: Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul preaches the end of death upon Christ’s return at the end of the Age.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, [dead rise first, and receive glorified bodies] and this mortal shall have put on immortality, [translation of the saints alive who receive glorified bodies] then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The first resurrection is the end of death.

I believe I have studied it enough to know what the Bible says..........The first resurrection is the rapture. Death simply refers to those Christians who have already died before that time.

Think what you are saying……..You agree Jesus and Daniel teach but 2 resurrections, yes?

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You agree that when the first resurrection occurs the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please note this is not the silent 1st stage coming of Christ, known as the ‘secret’ Rapture as taught by Futurists.

Instead, Scripture depicts this momentous event as a one-time supernaturally loud mind-blowing event…..unparalleled in the annals of history.

Christ coming ‘secretly’ for His Church 7 years before the end of the Age?

Not according to the plain reading of the Word of God.

As Futurist theorists would have it, there must be another resurrection of the converted Jews who died during the 7-year Great Tribulation, as well as another translation of those who were alive, in order that they, too, would receive glorified bodies.

Therefore, we now have 3 resurrections, with a second and third return of Christ.

Furthermore, according to your theory, death is not vanquished at the first resurrection, though Paul declares it is.

Let us use one of your Futurist authorities, John MacArthur, to see if he is in agreement with your interpretation:

So Paul says let me let you on a secret never revealed before. A whole generation of believers who will still be alive at the time of the resurrection in their natural bodies will be taken up in an instant transformed into a glorified body without ever dying. That's the mystery revealed. The great transformation.

That leads us secondly to the great triumph. This is the triumph folks, when this happens, death is vanquished. The triumph occurs. Verse 54, "So," to key words here, "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

In other words, when this happens, when the great transformation comes then will the saying come true and the Hebrew literally says death is swallowed up forever. And I say Hebrew because it's a quote from Isaiah 25:8. Paul always uses Scripture to confirm his word, his message.
So he's saying when the transformation comes, the triumph can be proclaimed. Death is swallowed up forever and the term swallowed has to do with total destruction, total end to death. Now death is not yet swallowed up. No, when this corruptible shall put in incorruption, this mortal shall put on immortality, then will come to pass the saying death is swallowed up.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1882/victory-over-death

One need not be a Greek scholar to understand the plain teaching of the 2nd Coming of Christ:

1. It will be a one-time event…..visible, spectacular, and glorious.

2. Everyone on earth will see it and know the end has come.

3. Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) who have died in the Lord will rise in glorified bodies first.

4. Next, Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) alive on earth will receive their glorified bodies, meeting Jesus in the air.

5. This is the first resurrection: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Someone is not telling the truth.

I prefer to trust the consistent, non-contradictory, infallible Word of God.

 

[prophet]

Protestant said:



Think what you are saying……..You agree Jesus and Daniel teach but 2 resurrections, yes?

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You agree that when the first resurrection occurs the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please note this is not the silent 1st stage coming of Christ, known as the ‘secret’ Rapture as taught by Futurists.

Instead, Scripture depicts this momentous event as a one-time supernaturally loud mind-blowing event…..unparalleled in the annals of history.

Christ coming ‘secretly’ for His Church 7 years before the end of the Age?

Not according to the plain reading of the Word of God.

As Futurist theorists would have it, there must be another resurrection of the converted Jews who died during the 7-year Great Tribulation, as well as another translation of those who were alive, in order that they, too, would receive glorified bodies.

Therefore, we now have 3 resurrections, with a second and third return of Christ.

Furthermore, according to your theory, death is not vanquished at the first resurrection, though Paul declares it is.

Let us use one of your Futurist authorities, John MacArthur, to see if he is in agreement with your interpretation:



http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1882/victory-over-death

One need not be a Greek scholar to understand the plain teaching of the 2nd Coming of Christ:

1. It will be a one-time event…..visible, spectacular, and glorious.

2. Everyone on earth will see it and know the end has come.

3. Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) who have died in the Lord will rise in glorified bodies first.

4. Next, Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) alive on earth will receive their glorified bodies, meeting Jesus in the air.

5. This is the first resurrection: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Someone is not telling the truth.

I prefer to trust the consistent, non-contradictory, infallible Word of God.

The Word of God is clear on this.

Man has to educate you, to make you gullible enough to fall for the cRapture.

 

[DHK]

Protestant said:
Think what you are saying……..You agree Jesus and Daniel teach but 2 resurrections, yes?

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Two resurrections separated by a little more than a thousand years.

You agree that when the first resurrection occurs the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please note this is not the silent 1st stage coming of Christ, known as the ‘secret’ Rapture as taught by Futurists.

Yes, it is. There is no reason for it not to be. Christ is coming for his own. This is the first resurrection.

Instead, Scripture depicts this momentous event as a one-time supernaturally loud mind-blowing event…..unparalleled in the annals of history.

Yes, before the Tribulation begins. No one said it would be "loud." We will meet the Lord "in the air."

Christ coming ‘secretly’ for His Church 7 years before the end of the Age?

Before the Antichrist is revealed which is at the beginning of the Seven Year Tribulation. These facts are easily discernible from Scriptures, from a plain reading of the Word of God.

Not according to the plain reading of the Word of God.

See above.

As Futurist theorists would have it, there must be another resurrection of the converted Jews who died during the 7-year Great Tribulation, as well as another translation of those who were alive, in order that they, too, would receive glorified bodies.

Therefore, we now have 3 resurrections, with a second and third return of Christ.

You are confused. There are only two resurrections. What happens after the first resurrection? The believers (living and those who have lived) will rise to meet Christ. They will then go to heaven. While The Tribulation goes on for seven years, they will face the Judgement Seat of Christ in heaven.
Then, at the end of seven earthly years, according to Rev.19, Christ will return with the saints in heaven to defeat the enemies of Israel. Thus will end the Seven Years of Tribulation. At that time:
1. The Jews will be saved as a nation.
2. The Millennial Kingdom will be established.
--Note that all those that enter the Kingdom will enter with normal bodies of flesh and blood, including the Jews. As those in the generations immediately following Adam lived to their mid-900's, so will people born then. The curse will be lifted off the land, and the earth will be restored. Righteousness will be restored.
3. At the end of the thousand years Satan will be loosed. The depravity of the human heart will be shown in that those who will be born to mankind who had entered from the Tribulation and bore children--even under ideal and perfect situations, still did not submit to Christ. Satan was able to gather an army from among them. But fire will come down from heaven and devour them.
4. The second resurrection then takes place at the end of the Millennial Kingdom as described in Rev.20:11-15.
--This resurrection is only for the unsaved.

Furthermore, according to your theory, death is not vanquished at the first resurrection, though Paul declares it is.

Paul is speaking about the believer. He is also speaking about the resurrection. The resurrection takes place when Christ comes again, before The Tribulation, then the believer will death be vanquished as far as the believer is concerned.

Let us use one of your Futurist authorities, John MacArthur, to see if he is in agreement with your interpretation:

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1882/victory-over-death

I read the link. He does agree as far as I can see, but not with what you have written.

One need not be a Greek scholar to understand the plain teaching of the 2nd Coming of Christ:

1. It will be a one-time event…..visible, spectacular, and glorious.

2. Everyone on earth will see it and know the end has come.

This is true for the Second Advent when He comes in Judgment against the enemies of the Jews, and to save the Jews as a nation. It occurs just before the millennium. Believers in Christ will be absent. It is His Coming to earth. The first time he comes is our resurrection.

3. Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) who have died in the Lord will rise in glorified bodies first.

4. Next, Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) alive on earth will receive their glorified bodies, meeting Jesus in the air.

This does not happen at the Second Advent when he comes to set up his Kingdom, but rather at the rapture when he comes for his own (believers in Christ).

5. This is the first resurrection: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is the rapture.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Someone is not telling the truth.

I prefer to trust the consistent, non-contradictory, infallible Word of God.

I don't believe you are consistent. It is not that someone is not telling the truth. No one knows everything and God has not chosen to reveal absolutely everything to us. One should not be too arrogant in thinking that he knows everything in eschatology and has it all figured out. Even Jesus had limited his knowledge while on earth, reminding others that only the Father knew the time of His coming.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.........................

1. It will be a one-time event…..visible, spectacular, and glorious.

2. Everyone on earth will see it and know the end has come.

3. Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) who have died in the Lord will rise in glorified bodies first.

4. Next, Christians (converted Jew and Gentile) alive on earth will receive their glorified bodies, meeting Jesus in the air.

5. This is the first resurrection: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.

.................................................

This is NOT "the First Resurrection: This the Thousand Years....Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection."

This, 1,2,3,4, is the ONLY resurrection from the death of the GRAVE. "The First Resurrection Thousand Years" is the rebirth—the 'spiritual resurrection' from the "death in sin".

And it is Jesus the Lord in the air who is met here on earth by the resurrected saints; it is not they ascending into the air leaving the earth behind.

 

[Protestant]

I don't believe you are consistent.

This is not a difficult study.

Either Christ comes one time personally at the end of the Age – called the 2nd Advent -- or He comes more than one time, in which case it should logically be called His 3rd (or more) Advent.

Futurists claim they have unlocked the ‘key’ to Christ’s return.

Unfortunately that ‘key’ resides in their minds and not in Scripture.

For example the classic ‘Rapture’ Scripture, 1 Thess. 4:16-17, describes the Lord descending from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, yet my worthy opponent states, ‘No one said it would be "loud."’

The ‘key’ then would be to define ‘shout’ as ‘whisper’, the ‘voice of an archangel’ as the ‘tired voice of a sleepy archangel’, and ‘the trump of God’ as ‘the flute of God.’

You are confused. There are only two resurrections. What happens after the first resurrection? The believers (living and those who have lived) will rise to meet Christ. They will then go to heaven…….The second resurrection then takes place at the end of the Millennial Kingdom as described in Rev.20:11-15. --This resurrection is only for the unsaved.

Really? What about those numerous Tribulation saints who died defending Christ, spreading their faith world-wide?

Where is their resurrection, if any?

Remember, you claimed ‘there are only two resurrections…..the first resurrection is the Rapture and the second resurrection is only for the unsaved.’

Am I the only one on this board who sees confusion and contradiction in the Futurist theory?

 

[Protestant]

While The Tribulation goes on for seven years, they will face the Judgement Seat of Christ in heaven.
Then, at the end of seven earthly years, according to Rev.19, Christ will return with the saints in heaven to defeat the enemies of Israel. Thus will end the Seven Years of Tribulation. At that time:
1. The Jews will be saved as a nation.
2. The Millennial Kingdom will be established.
--Note that all those that enter the Kingdom will enter with normal bodies of flesh and blood, including the Jews. As those in the generations immediately following Adam lived to their mid-900's, so will people born then. The curse will be lifted off the land, and the earth will be restored. Righteousness will be restored................

No one knows everything and God has not chosen to reveal absolutely everything to us. One should not be too arrogant in thinking that he knows everything in eschatology and has it all figured out. Even Jesus had limited his knowledge while on earth, reminding others that only the Father knew the time of His coming.

Then what, pray tell, is it that you don't know?...... besides the identity of the Antichrist, whose identity has been known by the Church for centuries.

So glorified sinless believers will be mingling with sinful flesh and blood humans for 1,000 years?

I believe we have the makings of a million-seller 'love story.'

I can visualize the promo for the book:

"The naysayers said, 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God', but a believing remnant of determined, love-starved Jews knew better!"

 

[DHK]

This is not a difficult study.

Either Christ comes one time personally at the end of the Age – called the 2nd Advent -- or He comes more than one time, in which case it should logically be called His 3rd (or more) Advent.

The second Coming has two parts to it: the rapture, and the Second Advent. They are separated by seven years.

Futurists claim they have unlocked the ‘key’ to Christ’s return.

Unfortunately that ‘key’ resides in their minds and not in Scripture.

For example the classic ‘Rapture’ Scripture, 1 Thess. 4:16-17, describes the Lord descending from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, yet my worthy opponent states, ‘No one said it would be "loud."’

The ‘key’ then would be to define ‘shout’ as ‘whisper’, the ‘voice of an archangel’ as the ‘tired voice of a sleepy archangel’, and ‘the trump of God’ as ‘the flute of God.’

Your sarcasm is noted.
Read the Book of Revelation and not the trumps that were blown, the voices singing and the many sounds made--all heard by John in heaven, but none heard on earth.
In context of 1Thes.4:16-17, where Jesus doesn't come to the earth, but only to the clouds (contradicting Zech.14:4), the sounds recorded here: the trump of God, the voice of the archangel, etc. are heard in heaven, not on earth. They are heavenly.

This is in stark contrast to the account given in 2Thes.
2Th 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This is the opposite, an entirely different account of what is read in 1Thes.4:16,17. It is nowhere near similar to the other account. Why? The two accounts are different because they are describing two different events.

Really? What about those numerous Tribulation saints who died defending Christ, spreading their faith world-wide?

Where is their resurrection, if any?

Remember, you claimed ‘there are only two resurrections…..the first resurrection is the Rapture and the second resurrection is only for the unsaved.’

Am I the only one on this board who sees confusion and contradiction in the Futurist theory?

"The Tribulation" is only seven years. The "Rapture" takes place before then.
Look at Scripture concerning what happens during that time:
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
--I don't believe any will be saved during this time. They will all believe a lie--the lie that the Anti-christ is God. They are under a strong delusion sent by God, that all of them will be damned. Scripture is clear here.

The ones that will be "saved" are the Jews, who will turn to Christ as a nation. Some of them will be killed before hand. They are the ones spoken of during this period. There are 144,000 of them sealed in chapter seven.

Concerning their resurrection nothing is said and I don't speculate where nothing is said. Some people think they have to know everything there is to know in the Bible. I am not one of those people.
There will many people that will enter into the Kingdom without a resurrected body. In a perfect society I assume some of them will get saved during that one thousand year period as well. The Bible doesn't answer all questions for us.
The Bible says:
"The secret things belong unto the Lord."
I am content to believe what the Lord does reveal in His Word.

 

[prophet]

Always skip this:
2Th 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Which ties in with this:

Mat 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:29-32
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The gathering of the elect will be the most Worldwide visible, audible, emotionally overwhelming event in History at that point.

Then the Wrath begins.

 

[DHK]

Always skip this:
2Th 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Which ties in with this:

Mat 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:29-32
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The gathering of the elect will be the most Worldwide visible, audible, emotionally overwhelming event in History at that point.

Then the Wrath begins.

No. The "immediately after" refers to the end of the Tribulation just before the Millennial Kingdom. That is when Jesus comes for his own, that is the nation of Israel. That is when the Battle of Armageddon takes place. That is when Israel gets saved.
How long do you think it will take for Christ and his armies to be defeated by the King of kings and Lord of lords? I don't think the time factor is very relevant here. Immediately after this the Millennial Kingdom will start.

We do note that Daniel has left some time gaps. The Tribulation lasts seven years. We known that. Then Christ comes. There is also the Judgment of nations to take place. By that time he sits on his throne. But still there must be time for it to take place.
All of those entering into the Millennial Kingdom will not have a resurrected body. But we will have one. For we will come down from heaven with Christ. And we will rule and reign with him.

 

[prophet]

No. The "immediately after" refers to the end of the Tribulation just before the Millennial Kingdom. That is when Jesus comes for his own, that is the nation of Israel. That is when the Battle of Armageddon takes place. That is when Israel gets saved.
How long do you think it will take for Christ and his armies to be defeated by the King of kings and Lord of lords? I don't think the time factor is very relevant here. Immediately after this the Millennial Kingdom will start.

We do note that Daniel has left some time gaps. The Tribulation lasts seven years. We known that. Then Christ comes. There is also the Judgment of nations to take place. By that time he sits on his throne. But still there must be time for it to take place.
All of those entering into the Millennial Kingdom will not have a resurrected body. But we will have one. For we will come down from heaven with Christ. And we will rule and reign with him.

He was telling this to the founders of His church, the Apostles, in a private conversation.

This:
Mat 23:33-39
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Then this:

Mat 24:3-4
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

So He was done with the Jews, until the Millenium starts, at His Return.

But to His church, He said "after the tribulation".