The ‘Rapture’ of Flight 370

[DHK]

He was telling this to the founders of His church, the Apostles, in a private conversation.

This:
Mat 23:33-39
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Verse 33 is the end of one sermon, a condemnation against the scribes and Pharisees. A new paragraph begins with verse 34 where his attention seems to be turned toward his disciples and immediate listeners. There is also his great lamentation included here, where he weeps for the city of Jerusalem, thus not all here is directed to his disciples.

Then this:

Mat 24:3-4

It is not "then"
You did not quote the first two verses which give context. By this time it is possible that a few days have lapsed.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
--He departed and went out of the temple. He traveled in the direction of the mountains. He climbed the mount of Olives, and their sat with his disciples. From the mount they could still see the city of Jerusalem from a distance, from their place near the top of the mount of Olives. It wasn't as if it was immediately in time they were all of a sudden transported in time to the top of a mountain. Give time for travel.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

So He was done with the Jews, until the Millenium starts, at His Return.

But to His church, He said "after the tribulation".

Those Jews of that generation crucified our Lord. They were unsaved Jews who died and went to Hell.
The disciples became believers in Christ. In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. We are one in Christ. There is no distinction.
At the time of His Coming there will be a living remnant that Paul has described for us in Romans 9-11. That remnant will be saved. Up to that time the Jews must be saved the same way that we are: trusting Christ as their Savior. There is no other way.

Before the Tribulation the saints will be raptured. That is plainly taught in 1Thes.4:16,17 which is far different than 2Thes. chapter one. You cannot reconcile those two chapters can you? The first resurrection is at the rapture before the Tribulation described in 1Thes.4:16,17.
The second resurrection is at the end of the Millennial Kingdom where all the unsaved will appear before Christ in Rev.20:11-15. Do you think we will be there as well?
There are two resurrections separated by a little more than a thousand years according to Rev.20:1-4.

 

[prophet]

Verse 33 is the end of one sermon, a condemnation against the scribes and Pharisees. A new paragraph begins with verse 34 where his attention seems to be turned toward his disciples and immediate listeners. There is also his great lamentation included here, where he weeps for the city of Jerusalem, thus not all here is directed to his disciples.

It is not "then"
You did not quote the first two verses which give context. By this time it is possible that a few days have lapsed.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
--He departed and went out of the temple. He traveled in the direction of the mountains. He climbed the mount of Olives, and their sat with his disciples. From the mount they could still see the city of Jerusalem from a distance, from their place near the top of the mount of Olives. It wasn't as if it was immediately in time they were all of a sudden transported in time to the top of a mountain. Give time for travel.

Those Jews of that generation crucified our Lord. They were unsaved Jews who died and went to Hell.
The disciples became believers in Christ. In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. We are one in Christ. There is no distinction.
At the time of His Coming there will be a living remnant that Paul has described for us in Romans 9-11. That remnant will be saved. Up to that time the Jews must be saved the same way that we are: trusting Christ as their Savior. There is no other way.

Before the Tribulation the saints will be raptured. That is plainly taught in 1Thes.4:16,17 which is far different than 2Thes. chapter one. You cannot reconcile those two chapters can you? The first resurrection is at the rapture before the Tribulation described in 1Thes.4:16,17.
The second resurrection is at the end of the Millennial Kingdom where all the unsaved will appear before Christ in Rev.20:11-15. Do you think we will be there as well?
There are two resurrections separated by a little more than a thousand years according to Rev.20:1-4.

IThes. 4 gives absolutely no time frame, and is only put in context by the reference to it in IIThes. 2.

By the way: Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Same event.
Obviously, unless you choke on the gnat of Dispensational división, supposing that Israel will want anything to do with Jesus, when they have an Earthly messiah in the Man of Sin.
He will be their king, exalting himself above all that is called God. They, the Jews, will slaughter us :

Rev 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrectionn such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[DHK]

IThes. 4 gives absolutely no time frame, and is only put in context by the reference to it in IIThes. 2.

Comparing Scripture with scripture we do have a time frame.
First, we do know that the two events are not the same. They are polar opposites.
In 1Thes.4, Christ comes only "to the clouds," not even to the earth.
In 2Thes.1, Christ comes to the earth in vengeance, and along with Zech.14:4 comes right to the Mount of Olives splitting it in two. We know exactly how he comes, where he is "touching down," and that "every eye" shall see him (Rev.1:7). The Jews will mourn for him. And all the nations will fear him and be judged by him.
In 1Thes.4 he comes only for believers, the dead in Christ. Those are the only ones mentioned, and they are resurrected at that time.
In 2Thes.2, there is no resurrection; only His Second Coming in Judgment.

By the way: Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As in 2Thes.1. It is at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation when he comes to take vengeance on them that obey not the gospel. Seven years of wrath on the earth and then He comes to destroy the enemies of Israel in the Battle of Armageddon. He will come in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Same event.

He doesn't even touch the earth here. There is no vengeance. There is no judgment. It is the resurrection of believers. It is their victory. It isn't even close.

Obviously, unless you choke on the gnat of Dispensational división, supposing that Israel will want anything to do with Jesus, when they have an Earthly messiah in the Man of Sin.
He will be their king, exalting himself above all that is called God. They, the Jews, will slaughter us :

That is one of the most anti-semitic remarks I have heard. You should be ashamed.

 

[prophet]

Comparing Scripture with scripture we do have a time frame.
First, we do know that the two events are not the same. They are polar opposites.
In 1Thes.4, Christ comes only "to the clouds," not even to the earth.
In 2Thes.1, Christ comes to the earth in vengeance, and along with Zech.14:4 comes right to the Mount of Olives splitting it in two. We know exactly how he comes, where he is "touching down," and that "every eye" shall see him (Rev.1:7). The Jews will mourn for him. And all the nations will fear him and be judged by him.
In 1Thes.4 he comes only for believers, the dead in Christ. Those are the only ones mentioned, and they are resurrected at that time.
In 2Thes.2, there is no resurrection; only His Second Coming in Judgment.
As in 2Thes.1. It is at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation when he comes to take vengeance on them that obey not the gospel. Seven years of wrath on the earth and then He comes to destroy the enemies of Israel in the Battle of Armageddon. He will come in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

He doesn't even touch the earth here. There is no vengeance. There is no judgment. It is the resurrection of believers. It is their victory. It isn't even close.
That is one of the most anti-semitic remarks I have heard. You should be ashamed.

Are you trying to tell me that this:

Mat 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is the judgement?

And that this:

1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

is not?

Both of these passages describe the gathering of the elect.

Both have a trumpet.
Both have Christ returning.

Please don't try to tell me that Jesus was talking to " The Jews" in Matthew 24. He was talking to His Church.

 

[DHK]

Are you trying to tell me that this:

Mat 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is the judgement?

Read the Book of Revelation. He will gather Israel together; will come from Heaven, and defeat the enemies of Israel; also "taking vengeance on them that have not obeyed the gospel of Christ." This is the salvation of the Jews (God's elect).

And that this:

1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

is not?

These are the dead in Christ. Christ does not come to the earth. It is apples and oranges. The two events are very much different. They are so different I am surprised you can't see the many differences.

Both of these passages describe the gathering of the elect.

It is not often that believers in Christ are called "elect." Most often that term is reserved for Israel, especially in prophecy.

Both have a trumpet.
Both have Christ returning.

Please don't try to tell me that Jesus was talking to " The Jews" in Matthew 24. He was talking to His Church.

One has a trumpet heard in heaven; one has a trumpet heard universally.
One has Christ returning to the clouds; one has Christ returning to the Mount of Olives.

 

[prophet]

Read the Book of Revelation. He will gather Israel together; will come from Heaven, and defeat the enemies of Israel; also "taking vengeance on them that have not obeyed the gospel of Christ." This is the salvation of the Jews (God's elect).


These are the dead in Christ. Christ does not come to the earth. It is apples and oranges. The two events are very much different. They are so different I am surprised you can't see the many differences.

It is not often that believers in Christ are called "elect." Most often that term is reserved for Israel, especially in prophecy.

One has a trumpet heard in heaven; one has a trumpet heard universally.
One has Christ returning to the clouds; one has Christ returning to the Mount of Olives.

The Mount of Olives isn't mentioned in either passage.

 

[Protestant]

Contradictions Galore

The Tribulation" is only seven years. The "Rapture" takes place before then.
..........I am content to believe what the Lord does reveal in His Word.

In an futile attempt to teach the purpose of the ‘secret ‘ Rapture is to escape Great Tribulation of 7 years, Futurists must ‘add’ and ‘take away’ from the infallible holy Word of God:

1. They add a Third Advent of Christ.

The Second 'secret' Advent is strictly to rescue His poor frightened gutless professing Christians from the mean, big bad Antichrist.

God forbid they are actually required to take a stand against him.

The Third 'public' Advent of Christ is for the purpose of judging the world, they teach.

2. They take away the factual history of the Church as declared in Holy Writ.

In order to satisfy their fleshly desire to escape hard times, hatred, loss of goods, persecution, imprisonment, starvation, beatings, tortures and death, Futurists must willingly turn a blind eye to the biblical history of the persecutions experienced by the Apostles and early disciples.

They must sweep under the carpet the truth of centuries of pagan Roman persecutions as well as several more centuries of Roman Catholic Papal persecutions.

Though Christ promises His disciples will also experience the same persecutions and tribulations the Master experienced, Futurists openly deny Christ’s words, inventing a doctrine which tickles the ears of their carnal congregation.

DHK insists “the first resurrection is the Rapture.”

Actually, truth be told, the first resurrection has two distinct parts.

1. The dead in Christ must rise first, receiving their glorified bodies.

2. Next, those believers who are alive on Earth at Christ’s coming will not experience death, but will instead be changed in an instant, receiving their glorified bodies at that time.

DHK rightly realizes “the second resurrection is only for the unsaved.”

Now let us examine Rev. 20:4-6:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Please note that those dead Tribulation saints who did not escape the Antichrist’s Great Tribulation are partakers in the first resurrection.

Therefore, the saints who were raptured did not escape the Great Tribulation.

The first resurrection = all the dead in Christ from OT times through Antichrist’s Great Tribulation rise first, immediately followed by the translation of the living saints who rise second.

The Holy Spirit has anticipated all false teachings concerning the Second Advent of Christ by elaborating the truth in several ways which defy refutation.

 

[prophet]

Read the Book of Revelation. He will gather Israel together; will come from Heaven, and defeat the enemies of Israel; also "taking vengeance on them that have not obeyed the gospel of Christ." This is the salvation of the Jews (God's elect).


These are the dead in Christ. Christ does not come to the earth. It is apples and oranges. The two events are very much different. They are so different I am surprised you can't see the many differences.

It is not often that believers in Christ are called "elect." Most often that term is reserved for Israel, especially in prophecy.

One has a trumpet heard in heaven; one has a trumpet heard universally.
One has Christ returning to the clouds; one has Christ returning to the Mount of Olives.

Col 3:11-12
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free:but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Not to Israel

1Ti 5:21
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Angels aren't Israel


Tit 1:1
Titus
Chapter 1
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

To an elder of a church, non-Jew.

1Pe 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

To saved people, many Jews.

Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

To a church.

1Pe 2:6
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious:and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Jesus.


2Jo 1:1
2 John
Chapter 1
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2Jo 1:13
13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Obviously, the Sisters are churches.

Either way, definitely saved people in the NT Church.

The other five times the Word "elect" appears in the NT, is in three parallel passages in the Gospels.
Matt 24
Mark 13
Luke 18

And all refer to the singular event, the gathering together of the saved.

As usual, you pretribbers think you have a corner on the rightly dividing, but you are seriously wrong.
Much dispy learning has cast a stronghold in your mind, blinding you to the very words in the Scriptures.

Please revisit these passages in earnest, we may not have much time.

 

[prophet]

In an futile attempt to teach the purpose of the ‘secret ‘ Rapture is to escape Great Tribulation of 7 years, Futurists must ‘add’ and ‘take away’ from the infallible holy Word of God:

1. They add a Third Advent of Christ.

The Second 'secret' Advent is strictly to rescue His poor frightened gutless professing Christians from the mean, big bad Antichrist.

God forbid they are actually required to take a stand against him.

The Third 'public' Advent of Christ is for the purpose of judging the world, they teach.

2. They take away the factual history of the Church as declared in Holy Writ.

In order to satisfy their fleshly desire to escape hard times, hatred, loss of goods, persecution, imprisonment, starvation, beatings, tortures and death, Futurists must willingly turn a blind eye to the biblical history of the persecutions experienced by the Apostles and early disciples.

They must sweep under the carpet the truth of centuries of pagan Roman persecutions as well as several more centuries of Roman Catholic Papal persecutions.

Though Christ promises His disciples will also experience the same persecutions and tribulations the Master experienced, Futurists openly deny Christ’s words, inventing a doctrine which tickles the ears of their carnal congregation.

DHK insists “the first resurrection is the Rapture.”

Actually, truth be told, the first resurrection has two distinct parts.

1. The dead in Christ must rise first, receiving their glorified bodies.

2. Next, those believers who are alive on Earth at Christ’s coming will not experience death, but will instead be changed in an instant, receiving their glorified bodies at that time.

DHK rightly realizes “the second resurrection is only for the unsaved.”

Now let us examine Rev. 20:4-6:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Please note that those dead Tribulation saints who did not escape the Antichrist’s Great Tribulation are partakers in the first resurrection.

Therefore, the saints who were raptured did not escape the Great Tribulation.

The first resurrection = all the dead in Christ from OT times through Antichrist’s Great Tribulation rise first, immediately followed by the translation of the living saints who rise second.

The Holy Spirit has anticipated all false teachings concerning the Second Advent of Christ by elaborating the truth in several ways which defy refutation.

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Yeah, they totally miss a few important details...like, all of them.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Verse 33 is the end of one sermon, a condemnation against the scribes and Pharisees. A new paragraph begins with verse 34 where his attention seems to be turned toward his disciples and immediate listeners. There is also his great lamentation included here, where he weeps for the city of Jerusalem, thus not all here is directed to his disciples.

It is not "then"
You did not quote the first two verses which give context. By this time it is possible that a few days have lapsed.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
--He departed and went out of the temple. He traveled in the direction of the mountains. He climbed the mount of Olives, and their sat with his disciples. From the mount they could still see the city of Jerusalem from a distance, from their place near the top of the mount of Olives. It wasn't as if it was immediately in time they were all of a sudden transported in time to the top of a mountain. Give time for travel.

Those Jews of that generation crucified our Lord. They were unsaved Jews who died and went to Hell.
The disciples became believers in Christ. In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. We are one in Christ. There is no distinction.
At the time of His Coming there will be a living remnant that Paul has described for us in Romans 9-11. That remnant will be saved. Up to that time the Jews must be saved the same way that we are: trusting Christ as their Savior. There is no other way.

Before the Tribulation the saints will be raptured. That is plainly taught in 1Thes.4:16,17 which is far different than 2Thes. chapter one. You cannot reconcile those two chapters can you? The first resurrection is at the rapture before the Tribulation described in 1Thes.4:16,17.
The second resurrection is at the end of the Millennial Kingdom where all the unsaved will appear before Christ in Rev.20:11-15. Do you think we will be there as well?
There are two resurrections separated by a little more than a thousand years according to Rev.20:1-4.

Jesus and his disciples had their conversation THERE AT THE SPOT outside the temple from which they had JUST come out of.

Absolutely NO <<time>> in the sense of <<a few days have lapsed>> is possible.

It is blatantly UNTRUE!

Besides, the temple was on the mountain of Olives. And its top is but a few hundred meters perhaps, wide. It certainly could not have taken Jesus <a few days> to get from the temple to where eventually He sat down and his disciples came to Him.


….so that Matthew 24:1-3 could only happen in one day, the Tuesday in the last week of Jesus’ last passover.

Sabbath
"Six days before passover Feast Days" John 12:1

(Palm Sunday)
Five days before "Feast Days" John 12:12

(Monday)
Four days before "Feast Days"
Mark 11:12 Matthew 21:18 Mark 11:15 Luke 19:45-48 Mark 11:19

(Tuesday)
THREE days before "Feast Days"
Mark 11:20,21,27 Matthew 22:23 Luke 20:1-8 Mark 13:1,3
= Matthew 26:2 "after TWO days (Wednesday Thursday) is Passover
= “Son of Man CRUCIFIED"

(Wednesday)
TWO days before "Feast Days"
Luke 21:38 Matthew 26:3
= Mark 14:1-3 "after TWO days (Thursday Friday) is Feast
= “Days of UNLEAVENED Bread"

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Besides, the temple was on the mountain of Olives.

Actually, the Temple Mount and Mt. Olivet (Mount of Olives) are about 400 yards apart, and Mt. Olivet is outside the ancient city.

 

[DHK]

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Yeah, they totally miss a few important details...like, all of them.

Excuse me. Is "a few important details" a question?
What exactly is your question? It seems that somewhere you are confused. I am not. Like many on this board it seems convenient to you to take one single verse and focus on it outside of its context.

Look at the context:
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
--verse five: He had power to rule 42 months. That is 3 1/2 years, and it begins at the mid-point of the Seven Year Tribulation period. If you would like to know what happens before then, read chapter six. He comes on a white horse with a bow, but no arrows. He comes deceptively making peace, a one world government. Then, according to Dan.9 and also the words of Christ, he will break the covenant that he has made in the midst of Tribulation by desecrating the Temple. At that time Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) will break out. This is that time.

--Note that throughout the entire Bible, and especially the Book of Revelation, things are not necessarily written in chronological order, but in the order of divine revelation, that is according to the way that God wants us to see and understand things. It is through His eyes that we gain understanding. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

--He blasphemes against God and heaven. He will do so all throughout this time. (vs. 6)

--7,8 This is at the very end of the 42 months. It is when Christ comes again. He will make war against the saints. At this time Christ will come.
This is the time of his coming. There is no resurrection here. There is a battle, and shortly after that battle when the forces of the Anti-christ are defeated many will enter into the Millennial Kingdom without a glorified body.
Those who have died in Christ before that time, that is before the Tribulation, will rule and reign with Christ. Suppose the population of the earth reaches 8 billion and then Christ comes. As many as 4 billion could enter into the Kingdom, plus all the saints of all ages from heaven.

Out of those four billion here is where the Bible is silent.
1. When do the Jews receive their glorified bodies. It says they will be saved as a nation at this time, but nothing about their glorified bodies.
2. When will the others, out of the four billion, who do happen to trust Christ, receive their glorified bodies? The Bible does not answer those questions, and it is best not to speculate.

We do know that of those four billion and of all their posterity, and all the unsaved of all the ages gone by, they will be raised at the end of the Millennial Kingdom to face Christ in the Great White Throne Judgment if they have not trusted Christ.

Remember that the earth will be like a paradise with the curse removed.
Remember also, that shortly after that the Lord will make a new heaven and a new earth, and former things will be passed away. In light of this last statement, the answers to those unanswered questions may be moot.

 

[prophet]

Excuse me. Is "a few important details" a question?
What exactly is your question? It seems that somewhere you are confused. I am not. Like many on this board it seems convenient to you to take one single verse and focus on it outside of its context.

Look at the context:
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
--verse five: He had power to rule 42 months. That is 3 1/2 years, and it begins at the mid-point of the Seven Year Tribulation period. If you would like to know what happens before then, read chapter six. He comes on a white horse with a bow, but no arrows. He comes deceptively making peace, a one world government. Then, according to Dan.9 and also the words of Christ, he will break the covenant that he has made in the midst of Tribulation by desecrating the Temple. At that time Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) will break out. This is that time.

--Note that throughout the entire Bible, and especially the Book of Revelation, things are not necessarily written in chronological order, but in the order of divine revelation, that is according to the way that God wants us to see and understand things. It is through His eyes that we gain understanding. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

--He blasphemes against God and heaven. He will do so all throughout this time. (vs. 6)

--7,8 This is at the very end of the 42 months. It is when Christ comes again. He will make war against the saints. At this time Christ will come.
This is the time of his coming. There is no resurrection here. There is a battle, and shortly after that battle when the forces of the Anti-christ are defeated many will enter into the Millennial Kingdom without a glorified body.
Those who have died in Christ before that time, that is before the Tribulation, will rule and reign with Christ. Suppose the population of the earth reaches 8 billion and then Christ comes. As many as 4 billion could enter into the Kingdom, plus all the saints of all ages from heaven.

Out of those four billion here is where the Bible is silent.
1. When do the Jews receive their glorified bodies. It says they will be saved as a nation at this time, but nothing about their glorified bodies.
2. When will the others, out of the four billion, who do happen to trust Christ, receive their glorified bodies? The Bible does not answer those questions, and it is best not to speculate.

We do know that of those four billion and of all their posterity, and all the unsaved of all the ages gone by, they will be raised at the end of the Millennial Kingdom to face Christ in the Great White Throne Judgment if they have not trusted Christ.

Remember that the earth will be like a paradise with the curse removed.
Remember also, that shortly after that the Lord will make a new heaven and a new earth, and former things will be passed away. In light of this last statement, the answers to those unanswered questions may be moot.

I looked at the context, and it is a war, by the Son of Perdition, against the Saints , during the Tribulation...


Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[DHK]

I looked at the context, and it is a war, by the Son of Perdition, against the Saints , during the Tribulation...


Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Rev 13:7-10
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The sense of verse seven is that they are persecuted; overcome, conquered, but not put to death. Other translations give the same idea. There is nothing to suggest that the saints are put to death. And there is nothing definitive about who these saints are.
Verse 10 tells us specifically that those who do persecute these saints, that they themselves shall be killed with the sword. Thus we know that the "saints" here have divine protection. Perhaps they are the 144,000 Jews that are sealed and cannot be hurt that are mentioned in Revelation 7.
That is only a suggestion.
There is also the promise given to the churches that "he that endures to the end shall be saved."
Since we know the Bible teaches eternal security, I believe this promise is speaking of physical salvation specifically related to the Tribulation. Here it is. The saints that endure this tribulation, that is the persecution of the Antichrist will be saved (physically) and will have the privilege of entering into the Kingdom which comes immediately after.

 

[prophet]

Rev 13:7-10
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The sense of verse seven is that they are persecuted; overcome, conquered, but not put to death. Other translations give the same idea. There is nothing to suggest that the saints are put to death. And there is nothing definitive about who these saints are.
Verse 10 tells us specifically that those who do persecute these saints, that they themselves shall be killed with the sword. Thus we know that the "saints" here have divine protection. Perhaps they are the 144,000 Jews that are sealed and cannot be hurt that are mentioned in Revelation 7.
That is only a suggestion.
There is also the promise given to the churches that "he that endures to the end shall be saved."
Since we know the Bible teaches eternal security, I believe this promise is speaking of physical salvation specifically related to the Tribulation. Here it is. The saints that endure this tribulation, that is the persecution of the Antichrist will be saved (physically) and will have the privilege of entering into the Kingdom which comes immediately after.

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Actually, the Temple Mount and Mt. Olivet (Mount of Olives) are about 400 yards apart, and Mt. Olivet is outside the ancient city.

Thank you very much.

I have never seen the distinction so clearly.

 

[Protestant]

More Glaring Inconsistencies

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Yeah, they totally miss a few important details...like, all of them.

According to Futurist doctrine, Christ comes to rescue His Church 7 years before the end of the Age.

Yet in the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus states no such doctrine.

In fact, both believers and unbelievers remain on Earth until the end of the Age.

In addition, it is the tares who are first gathered.....a complete contradiction to Futurist dogma.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The same truth is reiterated in the parable of the Net:

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I find it very providential that Jesus then asks His disciples, Have ye understood all these things?

Their response?

Yea, Lord.

Is it not sad how far we come from understanding basic Bible truths?

 

[Protestant]

What shall be the sign of thy coming?

Is it not sad how far we come from understanding basic Bible truths?

I ask the unbiased reader to consider this sincere question asked of Jesus by His disciples.

What shall be the sign of thy coming?

They knew nothing of two comings: a secret coming followed by a public coming 7 years later.

Had they known the Futurist theory they would have asked, ‘What shall be the signs of thy comings?’

But, alas, the disciples, Jesus and Scripture know of only one Coming of our Lord at the end of the Age.

Significantly, the very first statement made by Jesus in response to this question is, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Truly, false teachings concerning end times events will proliferate, deceiving many.

As have Futurism and Preterism deceived many today.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Please note Jesus did not say, 'But he that shall endure unto seven years before the end, the same shall be saved.'

Futurists would prefer not having to endure unto the end of the Age.

They would prefer not to have to deal with a messy Tribulation as well as a nasty Antichrist.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

A foundational doctrine of Futurism is that of the 2nd and 3rd advents of Christ.

His 2nd Advent is secret. His 3rd Advent 7 years later is public.

So they teach.

However, Christ anticipates the Futurist false teaching of a secret Coming and refutes it.

He will not return secretly where He could be found in the desert or in secret chambers out of public view.

Instead, He describes His one-time personal Coming as bright and as sudden as a lightning bolt which appears in the heavens for ALL to see.

[On a personal note to DHK: Your valiant efforts in biblically responding to and refuting Winman’s innumerable private interpretations of Scriptures and Parables do not go unnoticed. His interpretation of the Prodigal Son is legend. Soon, if not already, you will discern an unteachable spirit, much like Trevor, in which case you will wisely shake the dust off your feet as I have done with the two of them. IMHO, Winman crossed the line into heterodoxy when he blatantly denied the perfection of Heaven as well as proclaiming the false Gospel of justification in Christ, our example.]

 

[DHK]

Posted by Protestant:

I ask the unbiased reader to consider this sincere question asked of Jesus by His disciples.

What shall be the sign of thy coming?

They knew nothing of two comings: a secret coming followed by a public coming 7 years later.

The two disciples on the road to Emmaus didn't believe that Christ had risen from the dead, even though they were talking to the risen Christ!!!!
They didn't know a lot of things at that time. They were completely confused as to the nature and the timing of the Kingdom. Going to the disciples (pre-Pentecost) for information about the Kingdom is not the wisest source of information.

Please answer this question:
How many resurrections do you believe there are?

 

[OldRegular]

In watching news reports of the disappearance of Flight 370 these past weeks, I could not help but see a similarity with the prevalent view of the ‘Rapture’ doctrine held by many sincere Christians.

One day --- soon, they say --- true born-again Christians will disappear off the face of the Earth.

Like Flight 370, they will not leave a trace of their whereabouts behind.

Except, of course, for the numerous websites which will explain the Rapture to the uninitiated.

According to this popular theory held by those of the Futurist school of prophetic interpretation Christ will return in two-stages.

In stage 1 His return will be invisible, above the Earth.

His purpose: rescue His Church from The Great 7-year Tribulation instigated by a future unknown Antichrist.

To be fair, many Futurists hold to a mid-Trib Rapture.

A minority hold to a post-Trib Rapture.

There is much documentation Online as to the origin of these Rapture theories, so I need not detail the particulars here.

It should be mentioned, however, that these theories were unknown to the Christian Church until the 19th century.

Thus, for 1800 years the Church had not a clue that Christ was coming to rescue them from tribulation.

They had not a clue that Christ’s return was in 2-stages.

They had not a clue that the blessed martyrs were not quite as blessed as those Christians who would escape tribulation in the Rapture.

They had not a clue that enduring the extreme penalties imposed on them for centuries by decree of the ‘Christian’ Roman Catholic Church, all because they stood firm in their faith, would be surpassed by a ‘Great 7-year Tribulation’ imposed by a secular dictator in the last days.

They had not a clue that loss of all goods, including homes for which they worked hard, loss of personal freedom due to their imprisonment or restriction to certain boundaries, loss of freedom to buy and sell goods necessary for life and livelihood, loss of freedom to evangelize, loss of freedom to own, carry and teach the Bible, loss of assurance of freedom from harm by the religious and secular authorities who could arrest them at whim, loss of children who were slaughtered or taken captive, loss of family members due to imprisonment, never to be seen or heard from again, loss of life and limb by various cruel methods, including starvation, burning alive, strangulation, unimaginably cruel tortures, hanging, not to mention the severing of body parts by the sword……would be far surpassed by evils perpetrated during the 7-year Great Tribulation!

I ask the discerning, open-minded reader: What tribulation could be worse than that which has already happened to unknown multitudes of Christians…..all of which were ordained by 'sanctified, holy Christian men of God', who were and are today called ‘another Christ’ and the ‘Vicar of Christ'?

BTW, the sadistic victimizing of children by the Roman clergy has been ongoing for centuries. You can read of it in the extant Church Councils. You can read of it in their own histories. Such non-Christian satanic behavior is not limited to recent history.

This sordid truth was yet another reason why true Christians were disgusted and repulsed by the Roman Popes, priests, monks and friars.

Escape tribulation?

I believe the infallible words of our Lord:

In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

2-stage return?

I believe the infallible words of Scripture:

First comes Antichrist, then comes Christ.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, [The Day of the Lord's return in judgment], except there come a falling away first, [Apostasy of the professing Christian Roman Church], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [the Papal Antichrist, the Beast]

Excellent post. I see the whore of Babylon as the apostate church which I believe will extend beyond the RCC.