The “Rebaptisms” of Acts 19

[The Biblicist]

According to the gospel you preach...simple faith doesn't have to include faith in the Risen Savior...at all.
This is not a matter of understanding deeper truths of the Spirit, it is simply a matter of believing that Christ died, arose again, and is the remedy for the condition we are born into.

As a matter of fact the New Testament prophets clearly and explicitly say the Old Testament prophets did preach the death, burial and resurrection of Christ without knowing the means of the death (the cross):

Paul said concerning the gospel he preached that he preached "NONE OTHER THINGS" than did Moses and the prophets preached as to the essence of the gospel and that is "how Christ should suffer and rise from the death and show light unto the Gentiles" - Acts 26:22-23

Paul said that he gospel he preached was that Christ should die "according to the scriptures" and be buried and rise again "according to the scriptures (notice lack of reference to the cross) - 1 Cor. 15:4-5.

What "scriptures" is he referring to? The New Testament scriptures had not been written yet!

Peter said "TO HIM give all the prophets witness that whosever believeth (present tense) upon his name shall receive remission of sins" - Acts 10:43

The problem is that you dont' believe the Scriptures. You require the means of death (cross) in order to have the gospel of Christ, or its salvation while Biblical writers do not require it UNTIL AFTER that aspect is revealed and fulfilled.

You cannot grasp that the "mystery" has nothing to do with salvation applied to the saints prior to Pentecost but to the revealed means of his death. You cannot grasp the "mystery of the gospel" has reference to gentiles being equal in public worship (Eph. 3:1-5) and nothing to do with the sufficiency or the application of salvation by the gospel.

Your position is so irrational and contradictory as your pre-cross position is those WITHOUT GOD (that is what spiritual separation is from God), thus without life, without light and without holiness can yet exercise the fruit of the Spirit (faith, joy, hope, love, longsuffering, kindness, etc.). These things are impossible to the unregenerate condition of man, a man spiritually separated from God. You have transformed the church into salvation and Pentecost into another gospel simply because you cannot grasp the sufficiency of the Old Testament gospel without understand the means of his death - the cross or without understanding Gentiles would some day be regarded equal "in Christ" with regard to public worship in the house of God. Your position is simply nonsense. Sorry, but you are so irrational and blind there is no other way to say it more kindly. You simply have NO ACTUAL SALVATION of any kind prior to Pentecost, no gospel of any kind but empty promises that have no actual practical solution for their daily life in dealing with indwelling sin and daily spiritual separation from God and the things of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your the one with two gospels, my friend. Men were saved identically in the Old Testament as they are in the New, despite the fact that they awaited the promise of Messiah, the promise of the Spirit, and the promise of salvation from sin.

You have no salvation for anyone prior to Pentecost, none at all! Your salvation simply does not exist prior to Pentecost and can't exist.

Salvation is an empty word, a meaningless word prior to Pentecost by your position. The gospel is empty and meaningless prior to Pentocost according to your savlation!

Think not? Then answer me this, what PRACTICAL application of salvation from the problem of (1) sin or (2) spiritual separation does your pre-cross "salvation" or "good news" gospel have for anyone in any practical application prior to Pentecost?

1. What actual solution for their SIN NATURE does your gospel or salvation actually have to offer ON A DAILY AND INDIVIDUAL BASIS????

2. What actual solution for spiritual separation from God, from light, from life, from holiness from the fruit of the indwelling spirit (joy, peace, faith, longsuffering, etc.) do you have to apply to their personal condition?

3. What actual "justification" does your gospel offer prior to Pentecost? Does it actually remit any of their sins? Does it actually provide any righteousness outside of and apart and thus "WITHOUT WORKS"???

4. How does your pre-cross salvation actually deal with their sin nature, their depravity, their inability to understand spiritual things (without light) their separation from God (without life) their practical daily sanctification or ability to live a daily life for God that pleases him while being SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from Him, without Him, without His life, without His light, without His righteousness, without his characteristic fruit? Where do they obtain such things if not from God in their SEPARATED STATE from God?

Yours is an EMPTY promise without any DAILY and PERSONAL application to meet their problem of sin and spiritual separation from God and all that characterizes a relationship with God - fellowship, friendship, etc.

Tell us how a person WITHOUT GOD, without the life of God, without the light of God, without the holiness of God can daily live a life pleasing to God? Tell us how a person without the Spirit actually indwellling them can have power over indwelling sin when post-pentecost Christians have no such power over sin in and of themselves even with a regenerated inward man? Tell us?

Tell us how a human being VOID OF GOD can produce Godliness in their daily life? Tell us, how any sinner existing in a state of spiritual separation from God can be justified before God IN THEIR OWN LIFE TIME before the cross according to your theory? Tell us?

If pre-pentecost can acheive a daily life pleasing to God without God, without regeneration, without indwelling, then pray tell us why do we even need God, or regeneration or indwelling today if it can be achieved by sinful man without such at any time in history?

 

[Darrell C]

You simply have NO ACTUAL SALVATION of any kind prior to Pentecost, no gospel of any kind but empty promises that have no actual practical solution for their daily life in dealing with indwelling sin and daily spiritual separation from God and the things of God.

Again, false argument. Not going to waste my time addressing your lectures, Biblicist.

You have not addressed what I say, you simply debate with yourself over the false arguments you create.

You simply are not able to comprehend the difference between a promise being given, and a promise being received.

Here is what I said:


According to the gospel you preach...simple faith doesn't have to include faith in the Risen Savior...at all.
This is not a matter of understanding deeper truths of the Spirit, it is simply a matter of believing that Christ died, arose again, and is the remedy for the condition we are born into.


Now show faith in the risen Savior in any Old Testament Saint. Show that the Gospel Mystery had been revealed to them.

For about the sixth or seventh time, the Old Testament Saints were saved by grace through faith. That does not mean they had received the Spirit of God in the Ministry He performs in this Age. I have detailed this numerous times, yet because you still impose the false argument...you waste your time. You're not going to waste mine.

It's quite clear you have no desire to discuss doctrine, for if you did, you would address what I say rather than what you think I say. I mean really, how many times do you have to be corrected on this before you get it?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

While I know this is an exercise in futility, because you do not bother to address what I say, I will try this once more.

If you would actually join the discussion, instead of talking at me, you might realize how foolish your posting is. But I can see your ego makes you think you play to an audience, and trying to break through such a barrier is one the hardest tasks one can be faced with.

You have no salvation for anyone prior to Pentecost, none at all! Your salvation simply does not exist prior to Pentecost and can't exist.

It does exist, BIblicist, and this has been explained to you before.

So I will once again respond and already know I will not get an address of what I say, but more of your reiterated false arguments.

Pay attention:

The Old Testament Saints were just as saved as you and I, however, that does not mean they had benefited from that which we benefit from when we are saved in this Age.

The primary benefit we have is that when we are saved in this Age, under New Covenant standard, we receive, upon salvation, the Eternal Indwelling of the Spirit of God.

The Old Testament did not.

That does not mean the Old Testament Saint was bereft of the Spirit of God, for God has always ministered in and through men since the Beginning. However, we note Christ's distinction in those ministries, as has been pointed out to you numerous times.

Here it is again...pay attention:


John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)


15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Let's just stop there. Address the Scripture. Address the difference between the Spirit being with them forever (contrasted with Christ's departure/Another Comforter), and the Spirit being in them as opposed to with them. Address Christ's statement "I will come to you."

All of this has been brought to your attention before, yet you still go on about the Old Testament Saint "not being saved," and not having the Spirit.

Pay attention, Biblicist. Your carnal lectures are really very, very lifeless.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Salvation is an empty word, a meaningless word prior to Pentecost by your position. The gospel is empty and meaningless prior to Pentocost according to your savlation!

And this is what I have tried to get through to you, it is not that the Old Testament Saint was not saved, it is a matter that the Old Testament Saint had not yet received the promise.

You build your doctrine on statements that link the Prophecy of Christ to the realization of Christ...wow. That is really very impressive, Biblicist. What would the Church do without your enlightening commentary? lol

Of course the Apostles are in agreement with the Prophets.

You proof-text your doctrine yet you ignore clear statements of Scripture:


1 Peter 1:9-12

King James Version (KJV)


9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:


Do you enquire and search diligently the salvation wrought in the New Birth?

No, Biblicist, let me stop you there...you do not.

You are to be a minister of the New Covenant.

Secondly, are you prophesying of the Grace that should come?

No, Biblicist...you are not. You are supposed to be declaring the Grace that has come.

Do you...

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

...?

No, BIblicist, you do not.

You do not testify beforehand the sufferings of Christ, as Isaiah did, you declare the sufferings of Christ and His Resurrection.

Now pay attention:


12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


What does he mean, Biblicist...that they did not minister the things unto themselves?

What does it mean those things are now reported unto you...?

...by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven?

Again we see the significance of the coming of the Promised Spirit.

That does not mean they were bereft of the ministry of the Spirit in their lives, but at the same time you still reject a Bible Basic...

...the Spirit of God is ministering in a way that He did not before, and the primary issues are the Eternal Indwelling which is a result of the Mystery of the Gospel being revealed to men in this Age, which was not revealed in prior Ages.

Salvation is an empty word, a meaningless word prior to Pentecost by your position. The gospel is empty and meaningless prior to Pentocost according to your savlation!

No, BIblicist, the Gospel has been consistent throughout Scripture, progressively revealed, and progressively understood. It is you that makes salvation in Christ meaningless by imposing the provision not made available to the Old Testament Saints into the Old Testament. You equate their salvation which still demanded sacrifice for sins with the New Covenant believer who has received remission of sins in completion.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Think not? Then answer me this, what PRACTICAL application of salvation from the problem of (1) sin or (2) spiritual separation does your pre-cross "salvation" or "good news" gospel have for anyone in any practical application prior to Pentecost?

The practical application of salvation in the Old Testament is that men were saved by grace through faith.

Just as we are in this Age.

But you conflict with Scripture by trying to impose a remedy for sin into the Old Testament that simply does not exist.

Sin was dealt with on the Cross, Biblicist, not on an altar.

Your "salvation" in the Old Testament is lifeless, and it is not Scriptural.

Abraham did not receive remission of sins on an equal basis with the Remission of sins bestowed based on Christ's Sacrifice.

And until their sin was dealt with, Eternal Redemption was withheld. Simple as that. This does not mean that they were bereft of the Ministry of the Spirit in their lives. What it does mean, though, is that they awaited redemption...and they knew that. Pity you do not. Pity you ignore the many passages given you that show this.

Pay attention:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


You contradict the Writer of Hebrews, Biblicist, with your remedy for sin in the Old Testament, applied to the Old Testament Saint.

Your doctrine is in error. The Old Testament Saint died awaiting redemption which we receive immediately today. They died awaiting the Promise of the Spirit which we receive immediately today.

Very basic, Biblicist, and you would understand this if you would get out of books about the Bible and get into the Books of the Bible.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

1. What actual solution for their SIN NATURE does your gospel or salvation actually have to offer ON A DAILY AND INDIVIDUAL BASIS????

The solution was foretold in Prophecy, Biblicist, that's why we call it Prophecy.

They did not have na eternal solution...they had a temporal solution.

Animals died in their stead in previous Ages, Biblicist...that's all they knew. That is what they did. And if they failed to follow the provision provided them in those days they could receive no remission.

But if you want to equate Christ's Sacrifice to the deaths of animals, go ahead. That is precisely what you do.

Here is the daily and individual basis of the Age of Law (and all previous Ages have this same provision)...

...pay attention:


Hebrews 10:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:


That is the application of the Old Testament, Biblicist. They did receive remission of sins, but, their sins were not taken away, they were not redeemed:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


"The First Testament" in view is the Covenant of Law and its provision.

You equate that provision with the Sacrifice of Christ...

...the Writer of Hebrews does not.

You are not a Biblicist. You are Eisegesicist.

Say that with me now, let's pronounce it...eye-sej-uh-sist.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

2. What actual solution for spiritual separation from God, from light, from life, from holiness from the fruit of the indwelling spirit (joy, peace, faith, longsuffering, etc.) do you have to apply to their personal condition?

It's very simple, Biblicist, the Old Testament Saints could be filled with the Holy Ghost even as you and I can be.

Or, we can grieve God and distance ourselves from Him.

That is why David must plea "Take not they Spirit from me" yet you and I would ignore a very simple Bible Basic if we did...the Eternal Indwelling of God is not something that is based on our sinning or not sinning, it is based on the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ, and our faith in that specific Work of Christ.

That is why your ignorance of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is so remarkable to me.

As far as life and light, I gave direct response to the nonsense you were teaching in the other thread, which you ignored, choosing rather to discuss the errors of someone fellowshipping in the home. That too was an exercise in detail showing your inability to follow a conversation, and a great example of you debating with yourself. All of the many off-topic posts just to conclude "Oh, well if that's what you're saying, I'm okay with that."

Well guess what...nobody cares what you are okay with.

What we should care about is what Scripture teaches, and you are ignoring some very basic principles concerning salvation in Christ.

Again, we see the Spirit of God was with the disciple, but would be in them. You do not understand the significance of that distinction, thus you teach a lifeless salvation that is equable throughout Scripture and minimize Salvation in Christ altogether.

But as I have also said several times, you are not alone...most do.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

3. What actual "justification" does your gospel offer prior to Pentecost? Does it actually remit any of their sins? Does it actually provide any righteousness outside of and apart and thus "WITHOUT WORKS"???

The justification of the Old Testament Saint was sufficient for determination of their eternal destiny. That justification ensured Eternal Security, but, that SEcurity was dependent on the same thing ours is, God's grace.

That justification, as you have been shown many times over, did not remit sins.

Your error is thinking that it did.

Again...pay attention:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)


1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.





Hebrews 10:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Here is the promise of remission of sins in completion:


Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version (KJV)


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Now contrast that with the condition existing in that day:


Hebrews 10:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.


Now, pay attention to what the Writer of Hebrews says...


Hebrews 10:15-18

King James Version (KJV)


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


This is so basic. It is appalling that it has to be pointed out.

Now you show me how the Old Testament Saint received this Remission of sins, Biblicist.

You can't.

Here is how they received this remission of sins:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


You are not understanding that the sacrifices which brought remission of sins in the Old Testament cannot be compared to the Sacrifice of Christ in any way.

Yet you equate the two.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

4. How does your pre-cross salvation actually deal with their sin nature, their depravity, their inability to understand spiritual things (without light) their separation from God (without life) their practical daily sanctification or ability to live a daily life for God that pleases him while being SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from Him, without Him, without His life, without His light, without His righteousness, without his characteristic fruit? Where do they obtain such things if not from God in their SEPARATED STATE from God?

You could answer these questions for yourself, and see the error of your doctrine. But because your ego is the focal point in your world, you do not.

Let's look at them:

How does your pre-cross salvation actually deal with their sin nature,

I have told you many times...with the provision given them. That is...animal sacrifice.

But it was a temporary remission of sins...not eternal. That is why Christ had to come, and had to die on the Cross.

This is just basic.

, their depravity,

This too is basic, and has been addressed several times: their depravity has to be examined in a context of enlightenment. In the Old Testament, just as in the New, the concrete principle that neither the natural man, nor the spiritual man, can understand anything apart from God's enlightening ministry is just...

...basic.

When you learn spiritual truth, Biblicist, is that an intellectual endeavor, or does God instruct you?

So too, with the Old Testament Saint, God enlightened them to spiritual truths.

Now, where you are seriously confused is in trying to impose spiritual truths revealed prior to their being revealed. You constantly kick at the goad of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Your carnal understanding will not change the fact that men in the Old Testament were not being enlightened to the Gospel Mystery. The Gospel begins in Genesis 3:15, and is progressively prophesied through the Old Testament, but, men did not understand the implication of Christ's death.

This too has been pointed out with no address of this issue.

Peter, for example...was in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Matthew 16:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


He understood Jesus was the Christ, but he did not understand what Christ would do.

Because the Gospel Mystery was not yet revealed to him, that would not occur until the Promised Spirit came.

So to clarify this point, Depravity was addressed in the Old Testament Saint according to the enlightening of God, and was specific to the revelation provided to the Old Testament Saint.

their inability to understand spiritual things (without light)

Also addressed, and also basic.

Again, "Light" refers to enlightening, and that has always taken place in regards to God's relationship to man.

One of the primary errors of carnal commentators like you is this: you do not understand that God enlightens natural men.

How do you think natural men are saved, Biblicist. Have you bought into the error that men must be regenerated in order to understand that which God enlightens them to in order to place faith in Christ?

If you do, then you must equally teach that men can lose their salvation, because it is clear these folk...


2 Peter 2:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


These are natural men enlightened to truth who have rejected the Truth. They have rejected Light.

That truth was delivered unto them by God Himself.

Again, basic, and again...addressed several times.

And I hate to stop in the middle of point 4, but will have to.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

their separation from God (without life)

The "separation" you see is in your mind only, because we can see God's interaction with the Old Testament Saint through the Ministry of the Holy Ghost.

While we would not equate that relationship with Reconciliation, neither do we enforce an extreme view which does not calculate the very distinctions Christ makes about relationship with God through Himself.

Very basic principles you ignore, Biblicist:

1. No man can have life except he believe on the Risen Savior.

2. No man belongs to God except he have the Spirit of Christ.

3. God's Ministry through the Holy Ghost is not exclusive to the saved, but is rather first and foremost to unbelievers.


Pay attention:


John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)


15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Here are questions I never received a response for from the other thread.


Now, with simple yes or no answers, please answer the following questions:


1. What is the difference between the Comforter abiding with them forever and their current state at the time of this teaching?

2. Is Christ dwelling in them at this time?

3. Is the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth...already in the world?

4. Is there a difference between the Spirit of God dwelling with them, as opposed to in them?

5. What does Christ mean when He states "I will come to you?"

6. Is that different than His ministry at the time of this teaching?


But here you are asking me questions as though you have no responsibility to answer mine.

That is because you simply don't even know how to carry on a discussion. You need to learn to talk with people...not at them.

Just because you think your doctrine is the final word doesn't mean I don't see it as carnal commentary that cannot address these questions posed to you.

So there you go, a springboard for another carnal lecture. Go ahead and ignore them again.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

) their practical daily sanctification

It was according to the revelation provided them.

But you seriously err to equate this with Sanctification in Christ.

Pay attention:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



The statement in Chapter Ten is clear...animal sacrifice could not take away sins, sanctification through Christ's Sacrifice is a onetime event, and when one is sanctified in Christ they are made perfect (complete) for ever.

For ever, Biblicist, forever.

Now who is this contrasted with?

Those under the Law, benefiting from the provision contained in the Law.

Pay attention.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

or ability to live a daily life for God that pleases him while being SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from Him, without Him, without His life, without His light, without His righteousness, without his characteristic fruit?

God has always been pleased with the man that obeys the revelation provided to him.

That is just basic.

We see this principle in the beginning:


Genesis 4

King James Version (KJV)


1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


See how easy that principle is to illustrate, Biblicist?

Would you like to equate Abel's sacrifice with Christ's?

The Writer of Hebrews doesn't.

Pay attention:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


There is no equable comparison, yet...

...still we see God pleased with obedience to His will.

Where do they obtain such things if not from God in their SEPARATED STATE from God?

Your last question of point 4.

Can you yet answer this, and the other questions...yourself now?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Yours is an EMPTY promise without any DAILY and PERSONAL application to meet their problem of sin and spiritual separation from God and all that characterizes a relationship with God - fellowship, friendship, etc.

On the contrary...

...it is not my promise.

It is the very Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to men in this Age, and the reason you do not understand that is due most likely to the fact that you have not allowed God to teach you, you have simply embraced a system of theology that you are forced to defend.

Because you create false arguments this allows your ego to think you are actually addressing the issues that have to be examined.

The Old Testament Saint was not bereft of salvation, was not bereft of the Ministry of the Spirit, and was not bereft of relationship with God.

But, what provision they did have cannot be equated to the Provision we have as recipients of the Promises of God to the Old Testament Saint.

I have pointed out some very basic distinctions between the provision of the Old Testament and the Provision we have in Christ, yet...you will not. Because you continue seeking to defend Biblicist and BIblicist's doctrine rather than have a discussion.

Would it really be so bad to find out you are in error about something?

Apparently.

Just target one of the issues, Biblicist. Remission of sins. Do you really not see the difference between animal sacrifice and the Death of Christ in the stead of the sinner? And you really cannot correlate God being Christ reconciling the world, including the Old Testament Saint, to Himself...and Atonement for sins?

That is very sad. But as I said...you are not alone.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Yours is an EMPTY promise without any DAILY and PERSONAL application to meet their problem of sin and spiritual separation from God and all that characterizes a relationship with God - fellowship, friendship, etc.

So show me how the Old Testament Saint's "met their problem of sin?"

Show me how relationship with God through Israel was not an Old Testament reality, and...

...how that is equable to being a member of the Church?

That's all you have to do to support your carnal doctrine.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Tell us how a person WITHOUT GOD, without the life of God, without the light of God, without the holiness of God can daily live a life pleasing to God? Tell us how a person without the Spirit actually indwellling them can have power over indwelling sin when post-pentecost Christians have no such power over sin in and of themselves even with a regenerated inward man? Tell us?

How did Abel do it, Biblicist?

But here is another question to ignore: who is said to be without God in the Old Testament?

Let me refresh your memory:


Ephesians 2:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Here's another question to ignore: How was Israel "not without God?" They were regenerate? Had the Spirit clearly taught as not having come yet?

You won't answer these question because you can't. If we follow your carnal reasoning then we have to conclude not only that only members of Israel were regenerate, but that all of them were.

Your doctrine is carnal and without understanding.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Tell us?

Who is us?

There are two people in this discussion, you and I.

You'll have to find another thread where your imagined audience has anything to do with this.

Of course, I guess I do have to admit, you would have to actually try to have a discussion with me in order for it to get to the level of "us" meaning you and I.

So far you have done nothing but debate your false arguments.

I make a statement and you give a carnal lecture that reintroduces the same issues I have on several occasion given detailed responses like this one. I have broken them up to make it easier to respond to. You have complained about my "long" responses yet it's okay for you.

You are a ridiculous antagonist, Biblicist.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Tell us how a human being VOID OF GOD can produce Godliness in their daily life?

I can't tell you something that arises from your own imagination. Again, the principle of the Filling of the Holy Ghost traces it's course throughout Scripture. But just as a born again believer in this Age can have the Spirit of God which is the Eternal Indwelling which became available through the Work of Christ, even so the Old Testament Saint could be filled apart from the Eternal Indwelling.

Not one Old Testament Saint did the first work of obedience which evidenced their faith in God..apart from the Ministry of the Holy Ghost.

Not one.

That does not equate to the doctrine you teach, that the Ministry of the Holy Ghost is identical between the Ages.

It does not equate to remission of sins is equable.

It does not negate Christ's teachings that He came to bestow eternal life through His Death.

Tell us, how any sinner existing in a state of spiritual separation from God can be justified before God IN THEIR OWN LIFE TIME before the cross according to your theory?

Biblicist...this is how we are saved in this Age.

This is just basic.

The sinner, existing in a state of spiritual separation from God...is justified before God in their own lifetime.

The Old Testament Saint was justified the very same way: by responding to the enlightening ministry of the Holy Ghost.

But that does not make the provision identical.

The Old Testament Saint was justified through faith, but his sin was not remitted on an eternal basis. He was not made perfect. That is why the provision of the Priest of those Ages was continual, because it could not take away sins.

God interacted with the Old Testament Saint the same way He interacts in this Age, the distinction being...the Gospel is now that which is revealed to men in that Ministry, and the Provision which was only promised in the Old Testament is not the reality.

Basic.

Tell us?

You can lead a mule to water...

If pre-pentecost can acheive a daily life pleasing to God without God, without regeneration, without indwelling, then pray tell us why do we even need God, or regeneration or indwelling today if it can be achieved by sinful man without such at any time in history?

For the same reason the Promises were given in the first place, lol.

Because men need to be saved from Sin and Sin's penalty. Because men need to be brought back into union with God, which was lost in the Fall.

Your doctrine leads to some very un-biblical conclusions, one which is prominent is that Abel (and all Old Testament Saints) was saved because he obeyed God and offered up animal sacrifice.

You are not understanding Christ's teaching, Biblicist. He distinguishes between the life provided to the Children of Israel in the Wilderness with the Life that the True Bread would provide, which He makes absolutely clear refers to His Death.

Here it is again, and again I ask you to pay attention:


John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)


15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


I have addressed and answered every question you have posed in this post, now return the favor and answer these:


1. What is the difference between the Comforter abiding with them forever and their current state at the time of this teaching?

2. Is Christ dwelling in them at this time?

3. Is the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth...already in the world?

4. Is there a difference between the Spirit of God dwelling with them, as opposed to in them?

5. What does Christ mean when He states "I will come to you?"

6. Is that different than His ministry at the time of this teaching?


Quit talking at me, Biblicist, and try something new: talking with me, and actually taking into consideration what I am saying.

Answer these questions.


God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

You simply are not able to comprehend the difference between a promise being given, and a promise being received.

Thank you, my point exactly! You do not have any kind of salvation actually "received" in their life time. You have nothing for them to deal with sin or spiritaul separation in their own life time. Your salvation is all future from their personal life, which means they had nothing while alive.

Here is what I said:


According to the gospel you preach...simple faith doesn't have to include faith in the Risen Savior...at all.
This is not a matter of understanding deeper truths of the Spirit, it is simply a matter of believing that Christ died, arose again, and is the remedy for the condition we are born into.


Now show faith in the risen Savior in any Old Testament Saint. Show that the Gospel Mystery had been revealed to them.

For about the sixth or seventh time, the Old Testament Saints were saved by grace through faith. That does not mean they had received the Spirit of God in the Ministry He performs in this Age. I have detailed this numerous times, yet because you still impose the false argument...you waste your time. You're not going to waste mine.

It's quite clear you have no desire to discuss doctrine, for if you did, you would address what I say rather than what you think I say. I mean really, how many times do you have to be corrected on this before you get it?


God bless.

Acts 26:22-23 repudiates your accusation. 1 Cor. 15:4-5 repudiates your accusation. You are still repeating your false views of the "mystery" of the gospel. You simply won't accept the Biblical specifications (the means of death = cross and the new subjects of salvation = Gentiles).

 

[The Biblicist]

How did Abel do it, Biblicist?

Circular reasoning! You are ASSUMING your position upon Abel when in fact Hebrews 11:4 explicitly repudiates your whole sacrifice based sin soteriology for Old Testament saints. He was righteous BEFORE he offered up the sacrifice, and he was righteous by faith BEFORE he offered up the sacrifice exactly as Acts 10:43 says - he had remission of sins BEFORE he offered up sacrifices just as Abraham was justified = sins remitted and righteous of Christ imputed and was "in Christ" just as Gal. 3:17 explicitly states.

But here is another question to ignore: who is said to be without God in the Old Testament?

Let me refresh your memory:


Ephesians 2:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Paul is describing "YE" or the Ephesians who lived AFTER Pentecost. He is not describing PRE-pentecost humans.

Here's another question to ignore: How was Israel "not without God?" They were regenerate? Had the Spirit clearly taught as not having come yet?

There was no NATIONAL salvation before or after Pentecost (not until Christ returns). As individuals, every Israelite was born "without God" just as every sinner prior to Moses and after Pentecost is born "without God." There is only one solution then and now - regeneration and justification. The Holy Spirit was already present in the world saving people exactly as he does now - no difference. His coming on Pentecost had to do with a new "house of God" and a new mission to the Gentiles not a new way of salvation.