not for Heaven, it is for here the physical world. Time will end. Rev 10: 6, and the use for time ends. Judgement beginsBut to God time is still literal, since He invented it.
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The 1 Day and the 1000 Years
- Thread starter John of Japan
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no, I wrote without thinking He used "beloved" . He was telling us to understand the concept,
So don't you believe that Heaven is a real place? If it is a real place like New York, then it is in this space time continuum and is a created place. Christ went to prepare a place for us, the New Jerusalem, which will come down out of the sky onto this physical earth.
It is not physical but spiritual
Physical reality was not created until Satan and others fell
2Pe 3:8
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But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
with the Lord should bed a reference to Heaven or from God's perspective into time
Sorry, you lost me.
True He is indeed multifaceted.But to God time is still literal, since He invented it.
Because He is communicating with us who live in the space time continuum He created. Why would He use some non-literal terminology to communicate literal truth?
Again, if "day" and "years" are figures of speech, metaphors, what concrete item do they refer to? A failure to answer this means you have not answered the OP.
2Pe 3:8
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But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Peter was writing to us a "beloved" for us to consider ..... how God treats us and will keep His promises to just and unjust
This was not a notice from God about time itself
Lodic
Well-Known Member
While preterists take a symbolic view of things that futurists take literal, we are not necessarily vague or ambiguous. I thought I had given a definite meaning, where the metaphor points to an unspecified period of time. As we agree, God's perspective of time is quite different from ours. Peter could just as easily have said that a day to God is the same as a million years, a hundred years, or even all eternity. Since God exists outside the boundaries of time, it's all the same to Him. Neither Peter nor John are trying to give us a formula or a timetable.
The passage in question is calling to mind the eternality of God and so we should not fret because He delays His coming because at some point time will be no more and we will all be brought into the eternal state where it will have seemed so short a time between His Incarnation and Visible Bodily return to earth if it even matters to us then.
I'm sorry, you are not making sense. Either 1 day and 1000 years are metaphors or they are not. If they are not literal, then what are they referring to?
Time is literal. However God uses numbers sometimes as literal, sometimes as symbolic to represent a literal truth by the use of a symbol.But to God time is still literal, since He invented it.
How often do you forgive 7 times? or 70x 7?...so 490 is a literal maximum?
In rev20...they lived a reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Is that a literal 1000yr millennium on earth? Or is a symbolic "thousand years" for the duration of the reign in heaven?
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
No, "unspecified period of time" is vague. And it is still referring to time. Metaphors typically do not refer to the same item ("unspecified period of time" referring to "1000 years"). They use one thing to refer to something categorically different. Again, look at Eph. 6, where each item of the armor is a metaphor, and the meaning is clearly given wherein it is quite different from the original item, yet the metaphorical meaning is clearly understood:
"14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"
You are still not understanding. I am not arguing for "a formula or a timetable." I am simply asking if the day and years are literal or not. I don't see how Peter can communicate his meaning if they are not literal.
Let me ask again: if the word "day" here is a figure of speech, what does it mean? You've given a meaning of sorts for the 1000 years, which in your view is not being used as an actual metaphor. (See the definition given above.)
I see no connection between this passage and the one in the OP.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
It's only vague in that we don't know how long a period of time Peter or John actually do refer to. If we did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. So, the metaphor refers to time, but we know how much time.
Maybe your point is that a metaphor is not the right term, based on the "armor of God" illustration. While I don't know what figure of speech the 1,000 years is, this is a comparative term to show us God's perspective vs man's perspective of time.
Sorry, this is not making sense to me. How in the world is "unspecified" not vague? If you say, "How much is that chocolate bar?" and I say, "The price is unspecified," aren't I being vague?
And you say "We know how much time." So, how much is it?
Why do you keep referring to the 1000 years but ignoring the day? And you cannot be convincing until you tell what figure of speech the 1000 years is (if it is not literal).
You see, it is much easier to say the day and years are literal. You've been dancing around the whole "figure of speech" idea, because if you say it is literal in Peter you have to say it is literal in Rev. 20. You're stuck in a conundrum, my friend.
They are real here and time is in use here but not with God, In Heaven, time is not a reference
so you answer your question, in Peters letter they are literal but not in Heaven where the verse uses as a setting
it is like yen vs the dollar but no exchanged rate
We need to consider the CONTEXT.
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, ‘Where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’
Peter was writing around AD 60, as the LAST DAYS of the Old Covenant were coming to an end. Jesus had said in his Olivet prophecy concerning the destruction -
30 ‘Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. .......34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
But now 30 years had passed & many of the Jewish leaders who had rejected Jesus had died & the next generation was in charge of Jerusalem. They were boasting that Jesus' prophecy of his coming for the destruction had not happened. They were saying that Jesus' prophecy is proved false. They were living proof of that.
Peter goes on to explain that the time lapse is because God is gracious -
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
Peter is saying that Jesus will come as he prophesied in the lifetime of THIS GENERATION. There is still time to repent, but soon the time for repentance will end. The heaven on earth which Jerusalem typified will be destroyed as prophesied, with all the elements of the Old Covenant. See e.g. Exo. 25:8, Psalm 84, Gal. 4:3,910 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
Peter continues by looking on to Jesus' final coming for resurrection & judgment & the NH&NE, with the same instruction Jesus gives at the end of his Olivet prophecy.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.
Mat. 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36 ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. ...... 42 ‘Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
That gives the indefinite time - a day as 1,000 years. Our generation still has time for repentance, but the present "millennium" will end, with no further opportunity for repentance.14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.
Mat. 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36 ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. ...... 42 ‘Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Its a number.
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