The 12 Anathemas of the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)

[Matt Black]

Hmmm...could there be any connection between the Eliyahu who posted this:

If you don't know this you don't know the Bible.

and the Eliyahu who posted this

Incarnate is not the word found in the Bible, though I just accept it.

?

Try reading John 1:14, my friend.

 

[Bro. James]

Twelve inch daggers at twenty paces, in cyberspace--Gentlemen.

We need to start a "wise yet harmless" class.

Vengeance is mine--sayeth the Lord, I will repay.

Now what?

Bro. James

 

[Eliyahu]

John 1:14 uses ginomai verb. If we stick to Word-to Word translation, it seems to be correct.
But in that sentence, ginomai has some other meaning. As the Lexicon by William Mounce indicatd, ginomai has the meaning of " assume the appearance of ", which coincides with 1 Tim 3:16. God was manifest in flesh.
Otherwise, if The Word became Flesh, then it contradicts "God is a Spirit" Jn 4:24
"It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" Jn 6:63
The Word didn't become nothing!
The meaning of Incarnation is that Word was enfleshed as we read Heb 10:5, 7

Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me :

10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


Jesus existed before His birth and communicated with Father. He came! He was not produced by birth! He was enfleshed by Holy Spirit, not by Mary!

Do you read Jesus was born already in Mary by Holy Spirit, before He was born out of Mary?

Read Matt 1:20, you will make a very interesting discovery in Greek.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
He told me he had never heard the Gospel proclaimed until he stepped foot into a Lutheran Church. [/QB]

Where did I say this? You must prove it, otherwise your father is in John 8:44

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
John 1:14 uses ginomai verb. If we stick to Word-to Word translation, it seems to be correct.
But in that sentence, ginomai has some other meaning. As the Lexicon by William Mounce indicatd, ginomai has the meaning of " assume the appearance of ", which coincides with 1 Tim 3:16. God was manifest in flesh.
Otherwise, if The Word became Flesh, then it contradicts "God is a Spirit" Jn 4:24
"It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" Jn 6:63
The Word didn't become nothing!
The meaning of Incarnation is that Word was enfleshed as we read Heb 10:5, 7

That's gnostic Docetism and is heretical. Oh, and it wasn't just condemned by the nasty old Catholic Church either, but by an Apostle: I John 4:3

I've noticed this about several PB groups; that their Christology can be a little unorthodox, verging at times on the docetic and at others towards adoptionism (Raven in particular)

 

[Chemnitz]

Read Matt 1:20, you will make a very interesting discovery in Greek.

So Mary didn't sleep around, So what? Jesus still recieved his flesh from her.

John 1:14 uses ginomai verb. If we stick to Word-to Word translation, it seems to be correct.
But in that sentence, ginomai has some other meaning. As the Lexicon by William Mounce indicatd, ginomai has the meaning of " assume the appearance of ", which coincides with 1 Tim 3:16. God was manifest in flesh.

I can't speak directly about Mounce as I don't have a copy of that lexicon but I can offer what is in BDAG concerning γινομαι.
1. to come into being through process of birth or natural production

2. to come into existence

3. come into being as an event or phenomenon from a point of origin
4. to occur as a process or result
5. to experience a change in nature and so indicate entry into a new condition (applies to Jn 1:14)
6. to make a change of location in space

I searched other lexicons and none said anything about "in the appearance of"

 

[Chemnitz]

Where did I say this? You must prove it, otherwise your father is in John 8:44

I am not talking about you in this sentence. You are not the only person I know that is or was associated with the Brethren.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Read Matt 1:20, you will make a very interesting discovery in Greek.

<shrug> The wording simply means that what was conceived in her was 'from' or 'out of' the Holy Spirit. The angel was reassuring Joseph that another man hadn't played a role in the conception; instead of another man, it was the Holy Spirit. That in no way negates Mary's role (and that of her ovum) in the process, it just means there was no human sperm involved.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Try to find out so-called Plymouth Brethren down the street there.

Matt, I wouldn't recommend that and neither would a friend of mine. He came out of the Brethren Church. He told me he had never heard the Gospel proclaimed until he stepped foot into a Lutheran Church. The only thing he ever heard from the Brethern was how the RCC was a bunch of unsaved pagan whores. </font>[/QUOTE]I asked you the evidence, then you answered this:

Where did I say this? You must prove it, otherwise your father is in John 8:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not talking about you in this sentence. You are not the only person I know that is or was associated with the Brethren.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it evident who is your father ?


If you didn't indicate me, why did you quote my post? Isn't it tricky?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Read Matt 1:20, you will make a very interesting discovery in Greek.

&lt;shrug&gt; The wording simply means that what was conceived in her was 'from' or 'out of' the Holy Spirit. The angel was reassuring Joseph that another man hadn't played a role in the conception; instead of another man, it was the Holy Spirit. That in no way negates Mary's role (and that of her ovum) in the process, it just means there was no human sperm involved.

I'm not sure what your point is here. </font>[/QUOTE]No human ovum was involved either until He was born ( gennao) already in Mary. So, Mary was simply a Surrogate Mother !

English translation "Conceive" is wrong because gennao was translated all the time as begot or begotten all the time in Matt 1.
So, Jesus was already begotten by Holy Spirit before He came out of Mary.

 

[Chemnitz]

If you didn't indicate me, why did you quote my post? Isn't it tricky?

I guess to you it is. I was warning him against your advice because of things I had heard from a person who left the brethren church and unless you have left them for the Lutheran church without telling us, I obviously was not refering to you.

It is very evident who my Father is, he is the Father in heaven who cared enough to give his own son for me.

 

[Chemnitz]

No human ovum was involved either until He was born ( gennao) already in Mary. So, Mary was simply a Surrogate Mother !

If Jesus is not of the flesh of Mary, how could he be called son of David? For Jesus to be of the line of David requires physical descent and obviously the genetic material had to come from somewhere.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus : and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth .

To link Rome with these verses takes a lot of imagination and hypocrisy. To claim Rome is wealthy is a huge mistake. I have read several places online where the Vatican is in fact in a huge defeciet. Many Christians were indeed through the inquisition tortured through the Church but the RCC never killed anyone they handed them over for the state to carry out. Pagan Jerusalem and Pagan Rome were two places many were killed. Hunt in his original book said somethings in those verses were figuritive and some were literal. And he had to do so to read the RCC into those verses.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Read Matt 1:20, you will make a very interesting discovery in Greek.

&lt;shrug&gt; The wording simply means that what was conceived in her was 'from' or 'out of' the Holy Spirit. The angel was reassuring Joseph that another man hadn't played a role in the conception; instead of another man, it was the Holy Spirit. That in no way negates Mary's role (and that of her ovum) in the process, it just means there was no human sperm involved.

I'm not sure what your point is here. </font>[/QUOTE]No human ovum was involved either until He was born ( gennao) already in Mary. So, Mary was simply a Surrogate Mother !

English translation "Conceive" is wrong because gennao was translated all the time as begot or begotten all the time in Matt 1.
So, Jesus was already begotten by Holy Spirit before He came out of Mary. </font>[/QUOTE]Hmmm...I don't think you have the makings of a gynaecologist or obstetrician with that ignorance of basic reproductive biology. In fact, taken together with your earlier diagnosis of my 'Whorish Disease' then I'd steer clear of medicine altogether - it's not exactly your strongpoint, is it?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
It is very evident who my Father is, he is the Father in heaven who cared enough to give his own son for me. [/QB]

You never present the proof.

I know you spouted this:

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
How dare you insinuate such garbage. . [/QB]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
You ought to be ashamed of yourself for spouting such filth.
[/QB]

I would have not mentioned these if you have clearly retracted them, but you never collected those garbages out there.


BTW, don't be confused many other Brethren as there are many Brethrens, and that is why I specified,"so-called Plymouth Brehtren"

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by nate:
To link Rome with these verses takes a lot of imagination and hypocrisy. To claim Rome is wealthy is a huge mistake. I have read several places online where the Vatican is in fact in a huge defeciet. Many Christians were indeed through the inquisition tortured through the Church but the RCC never killed anyone they handed them over for the state to carry out. Pagan Jerusalem and Pagan Rome were two places many were killed. Hunt in his original book said somethings in those verses were figuritive and some were literal. And he had to do so to read the RCC into those verses. [/QB]

So, you deny even Crusade?

Matt, don't you think you can help Nate to have better understanding on the history?

 

[Chemnitz]

In your quoting, Eliyahu, I noticed you left out the part, to which I was responding then, where you insinuated that Lutheran Pastors are drunks when you spread the rumors started by an acquantance of yours.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Hmmm...I don't think you have the makings of a gynaecologist or obstetrician with that ignorance of basic reproductive biology. In fact, taken together with your earlier diagnosis of my 'Whorish Disease' then I'd steer clear of medicine altogether - it's not exactly your strongpoint, is it? [/QB]

Human Ovum was not designed to be fertilized with the Words or Spirit. Jesus was not imperfect man before His birth here. He was perfect before His bith. Where was He gone if He was created or produced by birth from Mary? Didn't Human Embryo have any Brain by the fertilization?

Can anyone call His Surrogate Mother as His Mother? If anyone is born out of his Surrogate Mother, then can he not be called as the descendant of the Surrogate mother's family?

I mentioned Jesus worked during OT times in hundreds of verses in OT. Also mentioned Moses worked for Christ ( Heb 11:26)

"This Day I have begotten thee" (Heb 1:5)

Who is "I" ?


Daniel 3:
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God .

Was the fourth Son of God?


Please wake up from the dream of the beautiful goddess.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Eli, that's... astoundingly odd. I don't know of any orthodox faith which believes such things. No ovum involved? Please.

You're digging yourself a hole.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
In your quoting, Eliyahu, I noticed you left out the part, to which I was responding then, where you insinuated that Lutheran Pastors are drunks when you spread the rumors started by an acquantance of yours.

I clearly told you that I was not mentioning the glutton, etc. but they live the easy life. Is it too much? because there are many clergy people who live easy lives not only in Rc or Presbyterian, as Clergy or Priests. Is such mentioning prohibited on this site?

Then you said " Spouting Garbage etc." Apparently you jumped up to the anger! then never retracted them!