The 14 or 15 tribes of Israel

[Ed Edwards]

zrs6v4: //The 144,000 that are of the 12 tribes in israel, in Revelation. what are the different theories on who the 144,000 are?//

The tribe of Dan is missing from the Revelation 7 list. (see my lists above in post #20) The son, Dan, is listed as one of the Sons of Israel in Genesus 35:23-26. Perhaps the Antichrist (A/C) or the False Prophet will be of the tribe of Dan? The A/C might also be Greek and/or Roman. In PROPHECY IN THE NEWS, Feb 2008 edition on page 33 explains how the A/C could be from the Tribe of Dan (Israeli), Greek, and Roman.

zrs6v4: //I have heard that these are the Jewish who will have a chance to accept Christ after the rapture.//

Don't think so. I think the folks mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 are the one who were saved during the Church Age (Pentacost to pre-tribulation Rapture). Messanic Jews who beleive that Jesus is the Messiah (Anointed one of God) are saved during the mostly gentile Church Age. Some of them will be rewarded at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb with service on earth during the Tribulation Period (and I'm sure the physical millennial Messanic Kingdom to follow).

 

[Ed Edwards]

How old are your other dads?

My biological Dad died at age 55.
My step Dad died at age 76.
My first Dad-in-law died at age 78 (the same year as my first wife, strangely)
My second Dad-in-law died at 90 some 4-years before I married my second wife.

 

[TCGreek]

zrs6v4: //The 144,000 that are of the 12 tribes in israel, in Revelation. what are the different theories on who the 144,000 are?//

The tribe of Dan is missing from the Revelation 7 list. (see my lists above in post #20) The son, Dan, is listed as one of the Sons of Israel in Genesus 35:23-26. Perhaps the Antichrist (A/C) or the False Prophet will be of the tribe of Dan? The A/C might also be Greek and/or Roman. In PROPHECY IN THE NEWS, Feb 2008 edition on page 33 explains how the A/C could be from the Tribe of Dan (Israeli), Greek, and Roman.

zrs6v4: //I have heard that these are the Jewish who will have a chance to accept Christ after the rapture.//

Don't think so. I think the folks mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 are the one who were saved during the Church Age (Pentacost to pre-tribulation Rapture). Messanic Jews who beleive that Jesus is the Messiah (Anointed one of God) are saved during the mostly gentile Church Age. Some of them will be rewarded at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb with service on earth during the Tribulation Period (and I'm sure the physical millennial Messanic Kingdom to follow).

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Are you rejecting a literal 144, 000 from the Jewish nation?

Aren't these actual Jews who would be saved during the first-half of the Trib?

 

[Allan]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Are you rejecting a literal 144, 000 from the Jewish nation?

Aren't these actual Jews who would be saved during the first-half of the Trib?

I was curious about that to

 

[Linda64]

zrs6v4: //The 144,000 that are of the 12 tribes in israel, in Revelation. what are the different theories on who the 144,000 are?//

The tribe of Dan is missing from the Revelation 7 list. (see my lists above in post #20) The son, Dan, is listed as one of the Sons of Israel in Genesus 35:23-26. Perhaps the Antichrist (A/C) or the False Prophet will be of the tribe of Dan? The A/C might also be Greek and/or Roman. In PROPHECY IN THE NEWS, Feb 2008 edition on page 33 explains how the A/C could be from the Tribe of Dan (Israeli), Greek, and Roman.

zrs6v4: //I have heard that these are the Jewish who will have a chance to accept Christ after the rapture.//

Don't think so. I think the folks mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 are the one who were saved during the Church Age (Pentacost to pre-tribulation Rapture). Messanic Jews who beleive that Jesus is the Messiah (Anointed one of God) are saved during the mostly gentile Church Age. Some of them will be rewarded at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb with service on earth during the Tribulation Period (and I'm sure the physical millennial Messanic Kingdom to follow).

I disagree. When I got saved 34 years ago, I became a member of the Body of Christ, the Church. Born again Jews will not go through the Tribulation because they are members of the Church. The Church does not go through the Tribulation. The Church is raptured out before the Tribulation. Where are the Scriptures where the saved Jews (the ones saved during the Church Age) are going to be separate from the Body of Christ/Church at the rapture? That's the first time I've ever heard that.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

As for me, I certainly KNOW that I am IN CHRIST and I also KNOW that when that trump shall sound I will be "caught up" to meet my Lord in the air...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thess. 4:18

 

[TCGreek]

I disagree. When I got saved 34 years ago, I became a member of the Body of Christ, the Church. Born again Jews will not go through the Tribulation because they are members of the Church. The Church does not go through the Tribulation. The Church is raptured out before the Tribulation. Where are the Scriptures where the saved Jews (the ones saved during the Church Age) are going to be separate from the Body of Christ/Church at the rapture? That's the first time I've ever heard that.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

As for me, I certainly KNOW that I am IN CHRIST and I also KNOW that when that trump shall sound I will be "caught up" to meet my Lord in the air...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thess. 4:18

Linda, I agree with you on this one. :thumbs:

Once you're member of the church, you're a member of the church that will be raptured.

 

[Linda64]

Linda, I agree with you on this one. :thumbs:

Once you're member of the church, you're a member of the church that will be raptured.

Thanks Bro TCG!

I believe that the 144,000 will come out of the nation of Israel (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel) who will be living in Israel during the tribulation. What I see in Ed's post is that the Jews who get saved during the Church age (which I am) will be going through the Tribulation and don't become members of the Church. What they become members of, I have no clue...and Ed will have to show me the Scriptures to back up this strange doctrine.

 

[TCGreek]

Thanks Bro TCG!

I believe that the 144,000 will come out of the nation of Israel (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel) who will be living in Israel during the tribulation. What I see in Ed's post is that the Jews who get saved during the Church age (which I am) will be going through the Tribulation and don't become members of the Church. What they become members of, I have no clue...and Ed will have to show me the Scriptures to back up this strange doctrine.

I believe Ed wants you to go through the Tribulation. :laugh:

Yes, I'm waiting for Scripture too.

 

[thomas15]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm in error but I think in Rev ch 7 Dan is removed but is covered under the addition of Joseph. Levites are added because there is no need for a priest class. So the result is all of the sons of Jacob are included in the Rev ch 7 list.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Linda64 "What I see in Ed's post is that the Jews who get saved during the Church age (which I am) will be going through the Tribulation and don't become members of the Church."

Unfortunately, Younger Sister Linda64, I have totally miscommunicated. Messianic Jews (those who believe Jesus is their Messiah) will NOT go through the Tribulation. Well, 144,000 will, but they will be Marked for God's Special protection. The 144,000 are Messianic Jews, either dead or alive when Jesus comes to get His Saints before the Tribulation period. Part of their* rewards IN HEAVEN is to serve Messiah directly on Earth. Chapter 7 of Revelation is about getting out (for all but the 144,000) of the Tribulation period by being taken off earth at the pretribualtion rapture.

* not all Messianic Jews will be selected for this service. Revelation mentions the qualification of being selected for the 144,000 group.

TCGreek: //I believe Ed wants you to go through the Tribulation. //

Younger Brother TCGreek: I don't want anybody to go through THE TRIBULATION period. It will be hell come to earth. Even Jesus said that it will be the worse thing that ever happens in the history (past and future) of the world.

Matthew 24:21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the worlde to this time, nor shalbe.

Some events in human history that are the Tribulation Period will be worse than:

1st Century - Destruction by General Titus (Later Emperor Titus of the Roman Empires) of the Temple & Jerusalem - 1Million Jews killed, 1Million Jews sold into slavery (fortunately the smart Jewish Christians were elsewhere at the orders of Jesus)

13th Century - Attila the Hun becomes the Scourge of N. Asia & the Europe
14th Century - Black Plague kills half a generation of Europe
20th Century - 30 Million Peasants killed to collectivize the Ukraine
20th Century - Hitler orders the death of 6,000,000 Jews

20th Century - 10% of all Easter Orthodox Christians killed from the Ukraine to Red China (making this the worse case of Persecution of Christians and providing 1/3 off all Christian Martyrs of all Ages to date)

The Tribulation Period will be worse than all these put together. The Tribulation Period (AKA Great Tribulation)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Not one single solitary saved person will be left behind when the Rapture of the Saints take place.

The 144,000 Jews will be sealed for a specific purpose on this earth during that period, but Scripture does not say they are saved prior to the Rapture but left to do a work.

Ed, sounds like you are giving us extra-biblical teaching there.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Galatians 3:28 (Bible not mentioned, quoted from above):
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In God's ecomomy sometimes spiritual truths are NOT true at specific times in History. If a woman wants to understand that this verse is NOT PHYSICALLY true in this age: go try to become a Baptist Preacher. This statement delivers a spiritual goal on earth and a spiritual reality in heave. This verse is not a physical reality today.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed, sounds like you are giving us extra-biblical teaching there.

You are confusing what you believe with what I'm saying. You may also be confusing what the Bible says, Young fellow. So far I've just touched a few of the high points. But Doubters (not any doubters I'm talking to here, yet) will say if I'm two simple: "Bible doesn't say that". When I've told all I think the Bible says, other doubters (only one i've talked to to here, yet) will say it is to complex. Sorry folks, I know lots of Mathematics (including Man's Logic - something God created) and how to teach it. I know lots of Science and have two degrees in it. My pastor has a Master's degree in English and another one in Theology. He also has 40 years preacing experince. So yes, I know more than John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) knew in 1830 - 20 years before he came up with pretty much his final take at pre-tribulation eschatological theory.


It became apparent to me in 1969 that about 1964 it became possible for mankind to do everything in the Book of Revelation besides the Pre-tribulation Rapture. EVERYTHING. And it wouldn't surprise if the Antichrist doesn't take the credit for getting rid of us folks who go around tell people they are sinners when it will be Jesus takes us to heaven. The last part of Revelation 6 is on earth and talking about mankind's reaction to the earthquake that takes place at the pre-tribulation (I've got a writing showing it is a different earthquake than the one in Revelation 16, if you like to see it). Revelation 7 takes place in Heaven immediately after - There are the 144,000 Jews being marked for safety on earth, there are the collected saints come to heaven 'which no man can number'. They have 'come out of the tribulation' having escaped tribulation, not because of anything they did, not because they did anything to deserve it, but because of what Jesus did for them in His Resurrection, because of God's plan: that the appropriate time (day, hour, month, year) had come.

 

[Linda64]

Unfortunately, Younger Sister Linda64, I have totally miscommunicated. Messianic Jews (those who believe Jesus is their Messiah) will NOT go through the Tribulation. Well, 144,000 will, but they will be Marked for God's Special protection. The 144,000 are Messianic Jews, either dead or alive when Jesus comes to get His Saints before the Tribulation period. Part of their* rewards IN HEAVEN is to serve Messiah directly on Earth. Chapter 7 of Revelation is about getting out (for all but the 144,000) of the Tribulation period by being taken off earth at the pretribualtion rapture.

I continue to disagree with this. The Jews who are saved before the Rapture become members of the Church. They are NOW IN CHRIST. If they die before the Rapture, they will rise with all the "dead in Christ"...and those who are alive at the Rapture will meet those "dead in Christ"in the air...which will include Gentiles. The 144,000 will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel who are ALIVE in Israel (they weren't saved at the time of the Rapture). They are the ones who are "sealed". You have not given any Scripture to prove your interpretation of Revelation 7.

* not all Messianic Jews will be selected for this service. Revelation mentions the qualification of being selected for the 144,000 group.

This sounds like the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses than it does the Bible.

Galatians 3:28 (Bible not mentioned, quoted from above):
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In God's ecomomy sometimes spiritual truths are NOT true at specific times in History. If a woman wants to understand that this verse is NOT PHYSICALLY true in this age: go try to become a Baptist Preacher. This statement delivers a spiritual goal on earth and a spiritual reality in heave. This verse is not a physical reality today.

Biblical truth remains truth ALL THE TIME...does not depend on God's economy to make it true only at specific times.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalms 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Galatians 3:28 is just as much a physical reality now as it was when Paul wrote it. God's Word does not change.

In context Galatians 3:28 means that there is NO DIFFERENCE between male and female, Jew and Greek, bond and free, etc. when it comes to salvation. The ground is level at the foot of the cross.

Where is your Scriptural proof for all this?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Not one single solitary saved person will be left behind when the Rapture of the Saints take place.

Amen, Brother StandingfirminChrist -- Preach it!

The 144,000 Jews will be sealed for a specific purpose on this earth during that period, ...

Amen, Brother StandingfirminChrist -- Preach it!

Yes, but they are in Heaven when the seal is pressed, on earth next time we see them in Revelation

... but Scripture does not say they are saved prior to the Rapture but left to do a work.

I respectfully disagree. They are not 'left to do a work'.
They are commissioned in heaven to do do a work, sent to earth to do it, covered in heaven with the Mark of Safety put there by Messiah Jesus to protect them on Earth.

They are the only people save the Two Witnesses left to witness to the Jews. (Two parties exist here: Can a gentile be saved in the Tribulatin period? one party sez YES, one part sez NO. Either way, very few gentiles will be saved. Their first testimony that "Jesus is Lord" will cause their baptism in fire: HEAD REMOVED - instant martyr. Recall that in the ten great persecutions of the Roman Empire of Jews & Christians, the person whose first confession that "Jesus is Lord' caused their martyrdom - they were called Stillborn Christians.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ed,

You are saying you respectfully disagree, yet you show no verses to refute my claim that

Scripture does not say they are saved prior to the Rapture but left to do a work.

Can you please produce some Scripture that clearly shows that Jews who are saved prior to the Rapture will be commissioned in heaven and sent to earth to do a work on earth during the tribulation?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed,

You are saying you respectfully disagree, yet you show no verses to refute my claim that

Scripture does not say they are saved prior to the Rapture but left to do a work.

I respectfully disagree what that statement because it cannot be shown scriputrallyl.

Can you please produce some Scripture that clearly shows that Jews who are saved prior to the Rapture will be commissioned in heaven and sent to earth to do a work on earth during the tribulation?

There is no single scripture that clearly shows that. As I implied before, it takes a lot of scriptures and understanding of them. I doubt if anybody who buys into:

"ignorant* preachers preach better than edumicated preachers do

will be able to follow the argument**.

*ignorant means only that a person doesn't know. I personally am ignorant of quilt making techniques (but my step father did neat handstiched quilts which he sold to help support my Down's Syndrome step-sister. Tee Hee - anybody here spell non sequitur? BTW, it is spelled 'non sequitur' don't let Spell Check in Mozilla Firefox fool you all)

** logical sequence of statements, a logic (mathematics) term

Already I've see a variation of not only eschatology here but also Those doctrines noted below:

----------------------------
The correct eschatology: pretribulation rapture2,
pre-millinnial Second Advent of Jesus (physical Millinnial
Kingdom) Futurist, is insperatable from the other Major
Doctrines. No Major doctrine is complete without the
pretirublation rapture1/resurrection1.

Recall these are the Major Doctrines:

#Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
Theology - The Study of God the Father
#Christology - The Study of God the Son
#Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
#Anthropology - The Study of Man
Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
*Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)
Eschatology - The Study of Last Things

Eschatology is interwoven with the other Doctrines
of the Bible. Obviously i spend all my time making
a living* and supporting the Tribulation's rapture/resurrection
eschatology on the internet, else i would write a book showing
how these great doctrines taught in the Bible all lead ONLY
to the correct Eschatology: pretrib, pre-mill, and futuristic.
(Well, till the Lord comes to glorify us at the pretribualtion
rapture1/resurrection1 - Then the whole Gentile Church will be
Preterists )

*Note - after I wrote this, I retired (in Aug 2006). But
I'm raising two grandchildren in Apr 2008 a 16-year-old boy
and a 10-year-old girl (11 next Monday).
-------------------------

If the Lord tarries, I'll show from scripture that

Jews who are saved prior to the Rapture will be commissioned in heaven and sent to earth to do a work on earth during the tribulation
further I'll show
The 144,000 are not all Jews who will become part of the mostly Gentile Church during the Time of the Gentiles.

BTW, The Doctrine *Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church shown in the scripture shows that God has two churches (Jewish/Israeli & Mostly Gentile), two groups of 'elect'

There is also a 'Doctrine of how we know what we know'. I can't remember the name of it. There is disagreement about this doctrine also.

Challenge:
Prove the Doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture event from this verse which shows a required characteristic of the deacon (direct) and the bishop (indirect):

1 Timothy 3:9 (Tyndale Bible, 1384 Edition)
9 but havynge the mistery of the fayth in pure consciece.

1 Timothy 3:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition)
Hauing the mysterie of the faith in pure conscience.

The obvious link is from the 'Mystery of the Faith' to the Doctrine which includes the pre-tribulation rapture event. Feel free to use any logic you know and extrapolation of the other verses to get from the scripture above to the destination of the challenge.

Does anybody disagree that the bishop (pastor/teacher) should, like the deacon, hold the mystery of the faith without wavering or doubting? Does anybody insist that I 'prove from scripture' that a pastor/teacher should hold the mystery of the faith without wavering or doubting? Will anybody challenge that I 'prove from scripture' that a pastor/teacher should KNOW that the
mystery of the faith means before they can hold that mystery in pure conscience (without wavering or doubting)/

If no objections, I can proceed. Do not expect me to be done prior to 15 April 2008 tax due date - i.e. a fortnight.

What is the mystery of the faith?


-

read my trailer:

-

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You haven't proven 144,000 in heaven will return to earth during the tribulation. How in the world do you grasp the mystery of the faith?

Ed, I may have to call you 'ricochet' as much as you are bouncing around.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

Ed, I may have to call you 'ricochet' as much as you are bouncing around.

Feel free. But remember the non-Biblical wisdom/truth:

What Peter says about Paul says more about Peter than Paul.

Wait, I can prove it from the Bible :wavey:

2 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And suppose that the long suffering of our Lord is saluation, euen as our beloued brother Paul according to the wisedome giuen vnto him wrote to you,
16 As one, that in all his Epistles speaketh of these thinges: among the which some thinges are hard to be vnderstand, which they that are vnlearned and vnstable, wrest, as they do also other Scriptures vnto their owne destruction.

Yep, what Peter says about Paul tells more about Peter than Paul.

 

[Ed Edwards]

You haven't proven 144,000 in heaven will return to earth during the tribulation. ...

It isn't easy, it will take more than a fortnight.