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The 2 perspectives of Salvation..
- Thread starter IFB Mole
- Start date
GordonSlocum
New Member
IFB Mole said:I have been reading here on the BB many interesting posts on the Cal vs. non-Cal position. Perhaps I have it wrong but it seems to me that people simply are looking at God's eternal redemptive purpose from different perspectives. One side is God's outworking of his decree's in the life of his people and the other is that people are responsible for their choices, accountable to the Gospel and culpible for thier sin, For example depending if its night or day BOTH are true:
1.) the sky is blue
2.) the sky is black
Can both be true? YES. Is predestination and God's control over all things true? YES! Will the events in Revelation happen with absolute certaintly no matter how mankind chooses and actually all of man kinds free will choices will in fact fulfill God's eternal redemptive purpose, though man chose freely to do as he will.
From our reality it is clear we MUST turn to God and get saved. We can discuss man's part and God's converting Grace but the FACT is, man runs from God unless he is called and drawn from the preaching of the Gospel so we as Christians have a duty and obligation to tell all people everywhere that the FREE Grace of God is available to ALL. We must propogate the Gospel. Are they God's elect? We don't know and frankly it is really not our concern HOW God saves, or WHY He saves the fact is GOD SAVES SINNERS!!
The sovereignty of God and the free will of man. It reminds me of a quarter. One side is heads (sovereignty) and the other side tails (human responsibility). You know if you grind one side completely off, it is still legal tender, because more than 50% is still "valid". Like Christians who lob mortar shells at one another on this issue. Both still saved but without the ever needed "other side of the coin".
What binds both sides togther of a quarter to make it legal? The copper in the middle. What binds bother sides of this issue - FAITH. BOTH sides agree that faith is essential in salvation whether you believe it is the innate faith in man that is the "light" that lights all men (though man has perverted his God awareness into a lie) or you beleive it is a "gift" from God the fact is faith is essential.
Here we can rest: preach the Gospel, witness to the lost, live a life to Christian precepts, don't hide the glorious light of the Gospel in our lives, tell ALL the lost that God saves sinners and keep our sight heavenly and not earthly
Jesus came to save them that are lost - so let' tell the lost that Jesus saves sinners by free and mertiless GRACE.
Am I missing something here? IS God sovereign and man responsible BOTH taught in the Bible?
You Get An A + And Ten Points For Correctly Answering The Bonus Question Correctly
MB,
A decree is an "order having the force of law" not a judgement. God's decree's - laid out before the foundation of the world (creation) - are immutable, unchanging and have the force of law over his creation. In other words his creation is SUBJECT to His decree's (yes, even man's 'free will').
His sovereignty simply means God's decree's are not based on or influenced from anything OUTSIDE of God. So if God decreed an even to happen -the crucifixion of Christ for example - it WILL come to pass. Even though all "parties" to the event acted of thier "own free will".
You can't seperate the two since the will of man and God's decree's are "intertwind" in His eternal redemptive purpose.
I have always liked the illustration that there is a door available to ALL men that has a sign that reads "whoseoever will, come unto me" and the sinner enters for salvation and when he turns around to close the door it reads "You did not choose me I chose you".
God's decree's are unchangable yet man is responsible for his choices, accountable to the Gospel and culpible for his sin.
A decree is an "order having the force of law" not a judgement. God's decree's - laid out before the foundation of the world (creation) - are immutable, unchanging and have the force of law over his creation. In other words his creation is SUBJECT to His decree's (yes, even man's 'free will').
His sovereignty simply means God's decree's are not based on or influenced from anything OUTSIDE of God. So if God decreed an even to happen -the crucifixion of Christ for example - it WILL come to pass. Even though all "parties" to the event acted of thier "own free will".
You can't seperate the two since the will of man and God's decree's are "intertwind" in His eternal redemptive purpose.
I have always liked the illustration that there is a door available to ALL men that has a sign that reads "whoseoever will, come unto me" and the sinner enters for salvation and when he turns around to close the door it reads "You did not choose me I chose you".
God's decree's are unchangable yet man is responsible for his choices, accountable to the Gospel and culpible for his sin.
Last edited by a moderator:
The only decrees I could find that were His decrees were about Nature, a certain King being made to eat grass, and concerning IsrealIFB Mole said:MB,
A decree is an "order having the force of law" not a judgement. God's decree's - laid out before the foundation of the world (creation) - are immutable, unchanging and have the force of law over his creation. In other words his creation is SUBJECT to His decree's (yes, even man's 'free will').
This isn't exactly so. You've forgotten about Jacob and Esau. God hated Esau and for good reason. He also hated his descendants Look at Malachi 1IFB Mole said:His sovereignty simply means God's decree's are not based on or influenced from anything OUTSIDE of God.
If it hadn't been them it would have been someone else. Still this doesn't mean that what God allows is decreed by Him to be. You want to take a possibility and make it seem as if it's predestined, and you have no scripture for it.IFB Mole said:So if God decreed an even to happen -the crucifixion of Christ for example - it WILL come to pass. Even though all "parties" to the event acted of thier "own free will".
IFB Mole said:You can't seperate the two since the will of man and God's decree's are "intertwind" in His eternal redemptive purpose.
I have always liked the illustration that there is a door available to ALL men that has a sign that reads "whoseoever will, come unto me" and the sinner enters for salvation and when he turns around to close the door it reads "You did not choose me I chose you".
God's decree's are unchangable yet man is responsible for his choices, accountable to the Gospel and culpible for his sin.
MB
MB,
Here you go. We see here Peter talking with the Jews in Acts chaper 2. We can see it was the determinate will of God (His decree) and his foreknowledge that Christ was crucified yet he clearly tells them they are culpible for their sin because he tells them THEY by THEIR wicked hands slain and cricified Jesus. God decreed the death of Christ for sinners yet they did it of their own free will and are wholely responsible for their wickedness.
It is clear here and many other passages that man's free will choices "dove tail" into God's eternal redemptive purpose by His decree's as laid out before the foundation of the world and all that comes to pass is by God's foreordained plan and as such man is still 100% accountable
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Here you go. We see here Peter talking with the Jews in Acts chaper 2. We can see it was the determinate will of God (His decree) and his foreknowledge that Christ was crucified yet he clearly tells them they are culpible for their sin because he tells them THEY by THEIR wicked hands slain and cricified Jesus. God decreed the death of Christ for sinners yet they did it of their own free will and are wholely responsible for their wickedness.
It is clear here and many other passages that man's free will choices "dove tail" into God's eternal redemptive purpose by His decree's as laid out before the foundation of the world and all that comes to pass is by God's foreordained plan and as such man is still 100% accountable
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Your theology fails to account for the fact that God wanted Israel to believe and for the Romans to make war (as they will in the tribulation) against Christ crucifying Him and His followers with Christ coming back at the end of the 70th week of Daniel with NO "church postponement". This is CLEARLY an open option until at least Mt 13 and it made Israel responsible for the decision THEY made themselves!IFB Mole said:MB,
Here you go. We see here Peter talking with the Jews in Acts chaper 2. We can see it was the determinate will of God (His decree) and his foreknowledge that Christ was crucified yet he clearly tells them they are culpible for their sin because he tells them THEY by THEIR wicked hands slain and cricified Jesus. God decreed the death of Christ for sinners yet they did it of their own free will and are wholely responsible for their wickedness.
What you have then is God is sovereign over the conseuqences (Christ was to die for sin either way) but man is responsible for his decisions.
Same with Pharoah. Pharoah could have "let My people go" and the same result would have appertained of Israel going back the Israel. The consequences for Pharoah were quite different than they needed to be. God created an unbearable set of consequences that made Pharoah flinch!
You might try looking at "God's decrees" as His "laws of consequences." But also consider -- God can take those consequences and change them according to His mercy ("I will have mercy on whom I will"). Doesn't that fit the truth of the issue better?
skypair
Skypair,
Good point. I suppose on a general sense my point is no matter what happens -God "allowing" something to occur or "changing the consequences" - the result is the same, namely the event happened. I just don't think we can seperate the two and build dogma around it. Man is culpible and God is sovereign. Man has a will, God His decree's before the foundation of the world and the two are inseperable. Though man freely chooses of his will, that decision fits precisely into God's decree's.
Good point. I suppose on a general sense my point is no matter what happens -God "allowing" something to occur or "changing the consequences" - the result is the same, namely the event happened. I just don't think we can seperate the two and build dogma around it. Man is culpible and God is sovereign. Man has a will, God His decree's before the foundation of the world and the two are inseperable. Though man freely chooses of his will, that decision fits precisely into God's decree's.
First, you're right. Let's be careful not to build "dogma" -- things that must be believed without proof -- around these issues. Let's notice that God has told us His plans over which He intends to be sovereign. In Deut 28, God tells Israel exactly what they will do of their own free will -- rebel against God. Then God tells them what the consequences of their rebellion will be and how He will sovereignly control every forseen event to bring them back to Him.IFB Mole said:I just don't think we can seperate the two and build dogma around it. Man is culpible and God is sovereign. Man has a will, God His decree's before the foundation of the world and the two are inseperable. Though man freely chooses of his will, that decision fits precisely into God's decree's.
Likewise, we don't have to doubt that if we receive Christ as Savior that God has any other plan for our destiny than heaven. Now some would say that doing such a "work" of our own volition would NOT assure salvation, but that is totally contrary to what God has revealed in His word, right? Man has sovereignty and responsibility for his own decisions and God is sovereign over the consequences -- HIS PROMISES, right?
The scriptural pattern for individual free will and decrees is -- God foreknows us and then predestines (plans) our destinies. There is no place for man to believe he can go against God's commands or decrees and the consequences be other than God has foreordained. Yet we still can freely choose to obey or disobey and be held responsible for our fate.
skypair
Hi IFB mole;
I don't know why post 25 wasn't finnished. They say computers don't make mistakes but then I'm not a computer. This is what I mean to say after this quote.
MB
I don't know why post 25 wasn't finnished. They say computers don't make mistakes but then I'm not a computer. This is what I mean to say after this quote.
I agree man is accountable for his sins. Of Course God chose us because He died for the whole world.You can't seperate the two since the will of man and God's decree's are "intertwind" in His eternal redemptive purpose.
I have always liked the illustration that there is a door available to ALL men that has a sign that reads "whoseoever will, come unto me" and the sinner enters for salvation and when he turns around to close the door it reads "You did not choose me I chose you".
God's decree's are unchangable yet man is responsible for his choices, accountable to the Gospel and culpible for his sin.
MB
MB said
"I agree man is accountable for his sins. Of Course God chose us because He died for the whole world."
I agree, if what you mean by "us" is "us" the saved and not "us" the whole human race inclusively. Also do you mean by "world" as the dirt, oceans, mountains, rivers and all of creation? The world "system"? The world without distinction (as to no distinction between Jew or Greek, bond or free)? Example, as Christ died not only for our sins (Jews) but the sins of the whole world (non-Jews too, meaning the whole world without distinction not without exception). In other words Christ died for the WHOLE WORLD without distinction as to your nationality - God's salvation is open to ALL - the WHOLE WORLD -not just the Jew.
God has always had a chosen people and He can because He is God. We have His chosen people in the Old Testament and His chosen people in the New also.
"I agree man is accountable for his sins. Of Course God chose us because He died for the whole world."
I agree, if what you mean by "us" is "us" the saved and not "us" the whole human race inclusively. Also do you mean by "world" as the dirt, oceans, mountains, rivers and all of creation? The world "system"? The world without distinction (as to no distinction between Jew or Greek, bond or free)? Example, as Christ died not only for our sins (Jews) but the sins of the whole world (non-Jews too, meaning the whole world without distinction not without exception). In other words Christ died for the WHOLE WORLD without distinction as to your nationality - God's salvation is open to ALL - the WHOLE WORLD -not just the Jew.
God has always had a chosen people and He can because He is God. We have His chosen people in the Old Testament and His chosen people in the New also.