The 2 perspectives of Salvation..

MB,

A decree is an "order having the force of law" not a judgement. God's decree's - laid out before the foundation of the world (creation) - are immutable, unchanging and have the force of law over his creation. In other words his creation is SUBJECT to His decree's (yes, even man's 'free will').

His sovereignty simply means God's decree's are not based on or influenced from anything OUTSIDE of God. So if God decreed an even to happen -the crucifixion of Christ for example - it WILL come to pass. Even though all "parties" to the event acted of thier "own free will".

You can't seperate the two since the will of man and God's decree's are "intertwind" in His eternal redemptive purpose.

I have always liked the illustration that there is a door available to ALL men that has a sign that reads "whoseoever will, come unto me" and the sinner enters for salvation and when he turns around to close the door it reads "You did not choose me I chose you".

God's decree's are unchangable yet man is responsible for his choices, accountable to the Gospel and culpible for his sin.

 

MB,

Here you go. We see here Peter talking with the Jews in Acts chaper 2. We can see it was the determinate will of God (His decree) and his foreknowledge that Christ was crucified yet he clearly tells them they are culpible for their sin because he tells them THEY by THEIR wicked hands slain and cricified Jesus. God decreed the death of Christ for sinners yet they did it of their own free will and are wholely responsible for their wickedness.

It is clear here and many other passages that man's free will choices "dove tail" into God's eternal redemptive purpose by His decree's as laid out before the foundation of the world and all that comes to pass is by God's foreordained plan and as such man is still 100% accountable




22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

Skypair,

Good point. I suppose on a general sense my point is no matter what happens -God "allowing" something to occur or "changing the consequences" - the result is the same, namely the event happened. I just don't think we can seperate the two and build dogma around it. Man is culpible and God is sovereign. Man has a will, God His decree's before the foundation of the world and the two are inseperable. Though man freely chooses of his will, that decision fits precisely into God's decree's.

 

Skypair,

Well said, brother (or sister?), well said, balanced and scriptural.

 

MB said
"I agree man is accountable for his sins. Of Course God chose us because He died for the whole world."

I agree, if what you mean by "us" is "us" the saved and not "us" the whole human race inclusively. Also do you mean by "world" as the dirt, oceans, mountains, rivers and all of creation? The world "system"? The world without distinction (as to no distinction between Jew or Greek, bond or free)? Example, as Christ died not only for our sins (Jews) but the sins of the whole world (non-Jews too, meaning the whole world without distinction not without exception). In other words Christ died for the WHOLE WORLD without distinction as to your nationality - God's salvation is open to ALL - the WHOLE WORLD -not just the Jew.

God has always had a chosen people and He can because He is God. We have His chosen people in the Old Testament and His chosen people in the New also.