The 3 C's: CoF's, Creeds & Catechisms.

[Herald]

TH,

I am not familiar with any creeds, CoF's or catechisms. I do believe the the Westminster CoF is popular among reformed Baptists.

Incorrect. The WCF is a paedobaptist document. The 1689 LBC is a Reformed Baptist document.

 

[Yeshua1]

Incorrect. The WCF is a paedobaptist document. The 1689 LBC is a Reformed Baptist document.

Is that the only used then by Baptists?

 

[Rippon]

Is that the only used then by Baptists?

It certainly wouldn't be used by non-Calvinistic Baptists. But among the Reformed Baptists the 1689 and the less used 1644 are employed.

 

[Herald]

Is that the only used then by Baptists?

You will find the 1689 LBC the most oft used confession among RB's. Non-Calvinistic Baptists would not subscribe to it.

 

[Herald]

FWIW my church does not require prospective members to agree with the 1689 LBC. They need to understand it is our doctrinal statement and agree not to advocate or teach doctrine contrary to it. Officers of the church (deacons and elders) need to fully subscribe to the confession.

 

[Rippon]

Officers of the church (deacons and elders) need to fully subscribe to the confession.

With no qualifications regarding secondary issues like insisting that the Pope is the Anti-Christ? All particulars are enforced,with no deviation allowed?

 

[kyredneck]

A distinctive in many local Baptist churches in moderrn America is no creeds. Of all the ones I have read, personally, I like the Apostles Creed the best.

It seems pretty solid to me.....

The Apostles Creed is misleading; "suffered under Pontuis Pilate" is NOT what the scriptures say:

But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lk 17:25

There is no charge leveled toward the Romans in the scriptures, the blood guiltiness is charged directly to that generation of Jews.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth....ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay..."

"Ye men of Israel...his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you.."

"And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

 

[Herald]

With no qualifications regarding secondary issues like insisting that the Pope is the Anti-Christ? All particulars are enforced,with no deviation allowed?

An officer would have to make known any exceptions to the Confession. That exception would be considered as to its importance. There has to be complete agreement by the existing elders before the candidate would be presented before the church.

 

[Yeshua1]

FWIW my church does not require prospective members to agree with the 1689 LBC. They need to understand it is our doctrinal statement and agree not to advocate or teach doctrine contrary to it. Officers of the church (deacons and elders) need to fully subscribe to the confession.

How do you allow then for one of the fundemental baptists distinctives of each Baptist allowed to come to their own conclusions regarding doctrines and practices?

 

[Tom Bryant]

How do you allow then for one of the fundemental baptists distinctives of each Baptist allowed to come to their own conclusions regarding doctrines and practices?

They don't have anything to do with one another. Every baptist can come to their own conclusions about issues. But a local church can say as a church this is what we believe and if you are going to be a part of it, you must accept that.

I am autonomous - and that idea isn't just for churches - to believe what I think the Holy Spirit is leading me to believe. But a local church is also autonomous to say you have to agree about these certain things to be a member or to be a leader.

 

[DrJamesAch]

The Apostles Creed is misleading; "suffered under Pontuis Pilate" is NOT what the scriptures say:

But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lk 17:25

There is no charge leveled toward the Romans in the scriptures, the blood guiltiness is charged directly to that generation of Jews.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth....ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay..."

"Ye men of Israel...his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you.."

"And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

It is ironic that of all the problems with the Apostles Creed, you focus on the Jew. Nevermind that it was written BY a Catholic TO a Catholic (to Pope Siricius by "Saint" Ambrose), just focus on the "Jesus didn't suffer under Pilate" even though it was PILATE that scourged Jesus (oh that must not be suffering, scourging and crowns of thorns must be PAINLESS) and that the crucifixion is all the Jews fault.

I have debunked this CRAP here http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2017016#post2017016

 

[preacher4truth]

Incorrect. The WCF is a paedobaptist document. The 1689 LBC is a Reformed Baptist document.

Not so incorrect. A Reformed Baptist Church here uses it, and I've known several RB's who quoted from it as well. I found this interesting as I've heard the LBCF was written to dispel paedobaptism.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have debunked this CRAP here http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2017016#post2017016

You have shown time and again NO control over your tongue. That said, you've to date debunked nothing.

 

[DrJamesAch]

You have shown time and again NO control over your tongue. That said, you've to date debunked nothing.

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ" Phil 3:8

His post (and yours) is DUNG.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is that the only used then by Baptists?

From The Baptist Confession with Commentary.....

The Term “Catechize”
The English word “catechism” is derived from the Gk. verb katēchēo, “to
resound, teach orally, instruct by mouth.” This term originally had the idea of
“speaking down or from above” i.e., from actors on an elevated stage. It is a
compound of the preposition kata, “down, throughout, thoroughly” and the
verb ēchēo, “to sound,” the source of our English word, “echo.” There seems
to be in this etymology the idea of a responsive answer. Catechizing has the
connotation of thorough or repeated oral instruction, and is only one of
several related terms for instruction or teaching found in Scripture. The term
itself occurs eight times in the New Testament (twice as “informed” in Acts
21:21, 24, referring to word–of–mouth information):
“That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
hast been catechized.” Luke 1:4.
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“This man had been constantly catechized in the way of the Lord;
and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the
things of the Lord...” Acts 18:25.
“And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more
excellent, being constantly catechized out of the law...” Romans
2:18.
“Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might catechize others also, than
ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” 1 Cor. 14:19.
“Let him who is being catechized in the word communicate unto him
who catechizes in all good things.” Gal. 6:6.
C. H. Spurgeon on Catechizing
(From the introduction to his own Baptist Catechism)
In matters of doctrine you will find orthodox congregations
frequently changed to heterodoxy in the course of thirty or forty
years, and that is because, too often, there has been no catechizing of
the children in the essential doctrines of the Gospel. For my part, I
am more and more persuaded that the study of a good scriptural
catechism is of infinite value to our children....Even if the youngsters
do not understand all the questions and answers....yet, abiding in
their memories, it will be of infinite service when the time of
understanding comes, to have known these very excellent, wise and
judicious definitions of the things of God...It will be a blessing to
them—the greatest of all blessing...a blessing in life and death, in
time and eternity, the best of blessings God Himself can give….I am
persuaded that the use of a good catechism in all our families will be
a great safeguard against the increasing errors of the times, and
therefore I have compiled this little manual...for the use of my own
church and congregation. Those who use it in their families or
classes must labour to explain the sense to the little ones; but the
words should be carefully learned by heart, for they will be
understood better as the child advances in years.
The Practical Use of a Catechism
The practical use of this catechism may be summarized in the following
considerations:
1. Catechizing is a scriptural practice. It is taught in both the Old and
New Testaments by both precept and example.
2. Many may have a general knowledge of the Bible, but greatly lack in
the ability to reason from the Scriptures in a doctrinally consistent
fashion. We must know the Bible doctrinally and must know our
doctrine biblically. Unless we arrive at a consistent doctrinal
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knowledge of the Scriptures, our knowledge of the Word of God is
both deficient and defective. The use of a catechism leads one to think
both scripturally and doctrinally. It is a very basic and necessary
introduction to Bible doctrine and to elementary theology.
3. This is a catechism with a commentary. Such a work is meant to
educate the entire family. Comments are meant for parents and older
students as a means of educating themselves in basic Bible doctrine.
The notes are meant to serve as a basis for family instruction and
discussion of biblical truth.
4. Questions and answers are followed by one or more proof–texts, and
should be memorized with the question and answer.
5. As to methodology, it is suggested that fathers instruct their children in
the questions, answers and proof–texts, and then discuss the issues
involved. Little children may be able only to memorize the questions
and answers, while older children will be able to memorize one or
more Scripture references. Those who are older can also begin to
assimilate the issues involved.

 

[preacher4truth]

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ" Phil 3:8

His post (and yours) is DUNG.

You continue to prove my statement, up to and including that to date you've debunked nothing.

 

[Iconoclast]

5. Baptists used catechisms extensively and with much spiritual profit
until the past century. This objection itself demonstrates the sad
departure of some Baptists from their own doctrinal distinctives and
practice, and the ignorance of some modern Baptists concerning their
own history and spiritual heritage. Following are some of the more
well–known catechisms written and used by Baptists:
• Henry Jessey, Particular Baptist, A Catechism for Babes, or Little
Ones, 1652.
• Hercules Collins, Particular Baptist, The Orthodox Catechism
(adapted from the Heidelberg Catechism), 1680.
• Thomas Grantham, General Baptist, St. Paul’s Catechism (based
on the six principles of Hebrews 6), 1687.
• Benjamin Keach and William Collins, The Baptist Catechism,
1693.
• The Philadelphia Baptist Association of Particular Baptists
published a catechism appended to their Philadelphia Confession
of Faith, 1742.
• William Gadsby, Gospel Standard Baptist, published a catechism
entitled The Things Most Surely Believed Among Us, 1809.
• C. H. Spurgeon published A Baptist Catechism (compiled from
the Westminster Shorter Catechism and Keach’s Baptist
Catechism), 1855.
• The Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention
published two catechisms: the first by J. P. Boyce, A Brief
Catechism of Bible Doctrine (1864) and the second by John A.
Broadus (1892). The latter work was jointly published by both the
Southern Baptist Convention and the American Baptist
Publication Society.

 

[Rippon]

I've heard the LBCF was written to dispel paedobaptism.

It was written to show how much substantial agreement they had with the framers of the WCoF.

 

[Iconoclast]

OBJECTION TWO: Have not catechisms introduced error into the thinking
of many?
ANSWER:
1. This may be true, but the fault lies not in the use of a catechism per se,
but in unscriptural presuppositions and religious traditions which have
been superimposed upon the Word of God.
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2. A catechism is true and useful only as it accurately communicates the
truth of Scripture.
3. Ideally, evangelizing through catechizing leads to a credible profession
of faith.
4. A catechism should be a preservative of the truth and not an introduction
into error. A given catechism is only as good, true or accurate as the
doctrinal and theological presuppositions of its author. As the very
Word of God itself must be approached with consistent presuppositions,
so must any religious literature, including a catechism.
OBJECTION THREE: There is a great danger in departing from biblical
language both in wording and form.
ANSWER:
1. There is always a danger in departing from Scripture in both doctrine
and practice. This is true in any type of preaching or teaching.
2. The best preventive from such a departure has been the use of concise,
comprehensive statements that accurately and consistently declare the
truth of Scripture—Creeds, Confessions and Catechisms—if they are
doctrinally sound and accurately reflect the teaching of Scripture.
3. There is a need for concise and consistent doctrinal or theological
propositions and summaries. The word “form” in 2 Tim. 1:13 refers to
a distinct outline or summary of Divine truth. A given theological
proposition or statement is necessarily more concise than any given
verse of Scripture because—if true or faithful to and consistent with the
Word of God—it is based upon the analogy of faith [the total, self–
consistent teaching of the Word of God as it bears upon any one given
aspect of Divine truth], and not upon one or even several proof–texts.

............

 

[Iconoclast]

OBJECTION FOUR: It is very dangerous to teach young, unconverted
children to give scriptural or correct answers to doctrinal questions.
ANSWER:
1. This objection is based on a great and legitimate concern for the souls of
children who might become mere professing Christians by simply
memorizing and mouthing the truth without an inward work of saving
grace.
2. This objection might equally be brought against having young,
unconverted children read or memorize Scripture, learn to pray or sit
under a consistent, educational preaching ministry.
3. Every legitimate avenue for the communication of Divine truth must be
used for the conviction, conversion, edification and spiritual maturation
of ourselves and our families. This includes every means of grace, both
public and private—personal and family Bible reading and prayer,
corporate worship, the public ministry of the Word, sanctified
fellowship with the people of God and the reading of sound religious
literature.
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4. The primary instrument after the Scriptures should be the use of a sound
catechism. This is in keeping with the principles of instruction Divinely
commanded in Scripture. A catechism is meant to supplement and
enforce, not replace, the primacy of the Word of God.
OBJECTION FIVE: The use of a catechism promotes the very dangerous
practice of developing a “proof–text” mentality i.e., the danger of basing a
doctrinal system on a comparatively few selected passages of Scripture, a
method used by various cults and others which often produces both a
misunderstanding and a misinterpretation of Scripture.
ANSWER:
1. This objection is based in part upon the fallacy that the Word of God
must declare a given doctrine repeatedly for it to be true. Once is
sufficient, although no biblical truth stands on only one isolated text.The necessity for the repetition of any given aspect of Divine truth to
establish its validity reveals a very defective view of both God and
Scripture. Every statement of Scripture is both true and truth.
2. The truth of Scripture exists as a comprehensive, consistent, unified
whole. While the catechism may only give a statement or two to verify
the doctrinal teaching of Scripture—if these statements are clear and
consistent with the “analogy of faith”—they form a scriptural basis for
one’s faith. Very often in evangelistic testimony or in the rigorous
exercise of evangelistic apologetics, a clear, sound statement from
Scripture may be the only firm or possible foundation for discussion.
3. It is hardly possible that any catechism could or should exist without a
given amount of explanation or the necessity for further study. The
questions, answers and proof–texts of the catechism provide an
introduction to the doctrinal teaching of Scripture, not the final and
exhaustive word. The questions and answers necessarily arouse the
curiosity of the young child or new convert and call for additional
explanation and discussion.

...............