The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

[savedbymercy]

The issue is not that it is permanently hid form some, the issue is that it is not hid to all lost people, i.e. the second, third and fourth soils of Matthew 13.

Note that the first soil did not start out unable to understand, they lost their spiritual ability. The first soil is like the Calvinist who is blind to any argument that differs from Arminianism.

Recall the teaching where we are not supposed to uproot the tares, but continue to teach? This passage (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) teaches we are teach the lost, even if some can no longer grasp spiritual milk, for the sake of the rest. Yes, I know that is a radically different view of the passage than you have been taught.

Thats exactly what it is, all lost people = Them that are Lost !

You have Two Types of People here in the world, Lost People and Saved People, Them that are saved, or them that are Lost !

The Gospel is the Good News to the Saved !

 

[BobRyan]

None in a Lost state can believe the Gospel, because as Paul wrote, the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost ! Not my word, God's Word, read it for yourself 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it [The Gospel] is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That is nonsense and you know it. And I have proof.

Paul says "IF our gospel is hid" that is if it is in any sense hidden it is hidden to them that are lost because as both Arminians and Calvinists know - some of the lost never choose to receive Christ - but many others DO.

You are simply proof-texting the way so many Calvinists try to do on this board.

And here is the "proof". Instead of looking at the subject and accepting all the texts - you consistently run from the texts that you know refute your view then apply extreme 'inference' into the one text you will quote.

While ignoring this "on purpose" --

Meanwhile Paul says the gospel is going to the unsaved in Romans 11 " 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

By contrast the God of the Bible "came to seek an save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11


The very sequence you object to is found there - "light shining out of darkness" and those who are lost being converted in the very sequence identified by Paul - the same author -- writing to the Romans.

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms! The gospel goes to the lost - those who are not saved, and not at all righteous -- and then -
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Without all the "extreme inference" injected into 2Cor 4 - this all works just fine.


That is how the "unreconciled" become saved as they respond to God's call where he "begs them to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5

As Christ stands on the outside of the christless-lost "I STAND and KNOCK - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

2 Peter 3 where we find that God is "not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" How does He take action to solve that problem according to Peter? is it by "mind ZAPping"??? No it is by the very "Arminian" solution of "delaying" allowing time for "Gospel appeal" to go forward -- a very Arminian process.

=========================

Your purposeful avoidance of the texts that you know so clearly refute every article in your extreme inference from 2Cor 4, is "proof" that you are in fact "proof texting' in the extreme. you know there is no way to harmonize your views with the text of scripture - so you don't even try.

That is the purest form of "proof texting" and though Calvinists do that a lot - you are taking it to a new level.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

That is nonsense and you know it. And I have proof.

Paul says "IF our gospel is hid" that is if it is in any sense hidden it is hidden to them that are lost because as both Arminians and Calvinists know - some of the lost never choose to receive Christ - but many others DO.

You are simply proof-texting the way so many Calvinists try to do on this board.

And here is the "proof". Instead of looking at the subject and accepting all the texts - you consistently run from the texts that you know refute your view then apply extreme 'inference' into the one text you will quote.

While ignoring this "on purpose" --

Meanwhile Paul says the gospel is going to the unsaved in Romans 11 " 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

By contrast the God of the Bible "came to seek an save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11


The very sequence you object to is found there - "light shining out of darkness" and those who are lost being converted in the very sequence identified by Paul - the same author -- writing to the Romans.

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms! The gospel goes to the lost - those who are not saved, and not at all righteous -- and then -
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Without all the "extreme inference" injected into 2Cor 4 - this all works just fine.


That is how the "unreconciled" become saved as they respond to God's call where he "begs them to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5

As Christ stands on the outside of the christless-lost "I STAND and KNOCK - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

2 Peter 3 where we find that God is "not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" How does He take action to solve that problem according to Peter? is it by "mind ZAPping"??? No it is by the very "Arminian" solution of "delaying" allowing time for "Gospel appeal" to go forward -- a very Arminian process.

=========================

Your purposeful avoidance of the texts that you know so clearly refute every article in your extreme inference from 2Cor 4, is "proof" that you are in fact "proof texting' in the extreme. you know there is no way to harmonize your views with the text of scripture - so you don't even try.

That is the purest form of "proof texting" and though Calvinists do that a lot - you are taking it to a new level.

in Christ,

Bob

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! And the Gospel is permanently hidden from them, meaning that they are permanently lost ! In fact they are those God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 !

 

[PreachTony]

That figures, you are scared to because it will manifest your real belief about the Death of Christ and what it actually accomplished for them He died for, its over !

You do realize that I answered your question, I just didn't give you a simple YES or NO answer.

I've explained my beliefs and used scripture to back them up. I haven't cut corners and I haven't ignored words in order to establish a previously nonexistent doctrine. Nothing in Bible confirms your belief that people are born saved or born damned.

 

[BobRyan]

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! And the Gospel is permanently hidden from them, !

Your need to avoid the texts dealing with this subject in this case exposes a proof-texting strategy on your part. You knew that I guess.

Since we both know there is no such thing as "Gospel hidden from all the lost" no not even in 2Cor 4.

You appear to be stuck - can't deal with the scriptures that refute your speculation and can't insert "all" into 2Cor 4.

 

[savedbymercy]

Your need to avoid the texts dealing with this subject in this case exposes a proof-texting strategy on your part. You knew that I guess.

Since we both know there is no such thing as "Gospel hidden from all the lost" no not even in 2Cor 4.

You appear to be stuck - can't deal with the scriptures that refute your speculation and can't insert "all" into 2Cor 4.

It certainly is a scripture that says that the Gospel is hid and permanently to all them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! Why would the Gospel be relevant to the lost ? They don't possess Salvation !

 

[BobRyan]

There is no "permanently" in 2Cor 4 and there is no "from ALL" who are lost in 2Cor 4. You need to "infer" it "into the text". AND you also "need" to ignore the list of texts I keep reposting. And we both know it.

That is the sign of proof-texting.

 

[BobRyan]

you claim to believe in Justification by Faith -

But then you argue for justification before a person is born. Salvation before they exist on earth and in real life. People do not "have faith" before they are born as babies in real life. (And of course they don't exist before that either).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

your views may fit a popular form of Calvinism

Originally Posted by Reformed

4. Others are not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may experience some common operations of the Spirit, yet because they are not effectually drawn by the Father, they will not and cannot truly come to Christ and therefore cannot be saved. Much less can men who do not embrace the Christian religion be saved, however diligent they may be to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the requirements of the religion they profess.

but in the actual Bible Christ came to "Seek and save the lost" Luke 19:10 - almost everyone here (even some Calvinists) are hard pressed to oppose that Text.

What is worse is that in the extreme position you are taking - you make a solution to the following texts - impossible for Calvinism.


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

You have claimed that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were lost and needed it.

=====================

 

[PreachTony]

It certainly is a scripture that says that the Gospel is hid and permanently to all them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! Why would the Gospel be relevant to the lost ? They don't possess Salvation !

The gospel is relevant to the lost because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. People are saved by grace through FAITH, and FAITH only comes by hearing the preached word of God. According to your theology, people are born saved, so they must have been born with faith, which means they must have heard the preached word of God prior to existing. The Bible also tells us that with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. So these folks who were born saved must have confessed to their salvation at some point prior to birth. How does that work?

There is scripture after scripture that tells you that the preaching of the gospel must come first, then salvation can come. We have shown this to you time and time again. You have latched on to a misinterpretation of one part of one verse and decided that verse overrides all other doctrine. By your logic of "if our gospel be hid = the gospel is permanently hid" then I could say "if I had a sandwich" and that would mean that I always have a sandwich. It is in no way an accurate representation of the scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

br

but in the actual Bible Christ came to "Seek and save the lost" Luke 19:10 - almost everyone here (even some Calvinists) are hard pressed to oppose that Text.

You dont believe that text, because you believe that some of those He came to seek and to save are still lost, am i correct ? Did Christ, according to what He came to do in that verse, did He seek and save 100 % of them that He came to seek and to save ? Yes or No !

 

[BobRyan]

His purpose is to "seek and save the lost" - but it still gets to "Whosoever will" because God chose free will as the model John 20:27-31

 

[PreachTony]

His purpose is to "seek and save the lost" - but it still gets to "Whosoever will" because God chose free will as the model John 20:27-31

Bob - I'm pretty sure savedbymercy has decided that certain verses negate other verses. Her dedicated devotion to claiming, even against scriptural evidence, that one part of one verse means the gospel is permanently hidden to the lost essentially negates even the fact that Christ spoke in Revelation to say "...let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." It negates Christ saying "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Scripture that shows man given a choice to accept or reject Christ (Jesus knocks on the door, and it is up to man to open the door) is basically denied in savedbymercy's theology.

In Luke 8, Jesus said "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." It's no difficult leap to understand that scripture as saying the word, when delivered to people, can lead to belief and salvation. Per what I've gathered from savedbymercy's philosophy, no one can choose to believe. You are either born saved or born damned. Christ said "except a man be born again" but according to savedbymercy you don't need to be born again because you are born with it from the start. This theology is purely anti-Biblical.

 

[savedbymercy]

Yes or No Please !

His purpose is to "seek and save the lost" - but it still gets to "Whosoever will" because God chose free will as the model John 20:27-31

Answer the question ! Was He 100 % successful in fulfilling the Purpose for which He came, to Seek and TO SAVE that which was Lost ? Wiill 100 % of that which was Lost be Sought out by Him, and SAVED by Him ? Yes or NO ?

 

[Don]

Answer the question ! Was He 100 % successful in fulfilling the Purpose for which He came, to Seek and TO SAVE that which was Lost ? Wiill 100 % of that which was Lost be Sought out by Him, and SAVED by Him ? Yes or NO ?

The ONLY way to answer yes to that question, is to admit that God created some human beings in His own image, but He created them to go to hell.

 

[InTheLight]

330 posts so far, about 100 of them the exact same duplicate post by SBM. Mods, can't you kill this thread? It's outlived some lifeforms.

 

[PreachTony]

330 posts so far, about 100 of them the exact same duplicate post by SBM. Mods, can't you kill this thread? It's outlived some lifeforms.

Yes, but sometimes it's fun to feed the trolls. It's like being on safari while wearing Lady Gaga's meat clothing. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

As Dave Hunt astutely points out:

To say that God commands men to do what they cannot do without His grace, then withholds the grace they need and punishes them eternally for failing to obey, is to make a mockery of God’s Word, of His mercy and love, and is to libel His character. Not inability but unwillingness is man’s problem: “The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God” (Psalm 10:4). Christ rebuked the rabbis, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40)—an unjust accusation to level at those who could not come unless God caused them to do so.

"What Love is This," p. 118.

 

[BobRyan]

Answer the question ! Was He 100 % successful in fulfilling the Purpose for which He came, to Seek and TO SAVE that which was Lost ? Wiill 100 % of that which was Lost be Sought out by Him, and SAVED by Him ? Yes or NO ?

"God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11

"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" 1 John 2:2

"God sent His Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14

How much Bible must your view ignore to cling to it anyway??

God sovereignly chose this free will system and sustains it by His own power and wisdom.

 

[savedbymercy]

"God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11

"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" 1 John 2:2

"God sent His Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14

How much Bible must your view ignore to cling to it anyway??

God sovereignly chose this free will system and sustains it by His own power and wisdom.

[quote name="BobRyan" post=2181492]<b>His purpose is to "seek and save the lost"</b> - but it still gets to "Whosoever will" because God chose free will as the model John 20:27-31[/QUOTE]

Answer the question ! Was He 100 % successful in fulfilling the Purpose for which He came, to Seek and TO SAVE that which was Lost ? Wiill 100 % of that which was Lost be Sought out by Him, and SAVED by Him ? Yes or NO ?