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The $64,000 question

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Mar 22, 2004.

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  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Hi Brian,

    You may be right.

    It's really simple.

    You can read Scripture everyday, and study all the commentaries, and research all the Greek that you want, and study all the history that you could ever want, and it comes down to one thing.

    Faith.

    But you already said as much, didn't you.

    My point is that the judges and condemners on the board have no ground on which to stand and make their pronouncements against those who believe differently than they do. [​IMG]

    After all, they can't really know that they are right in the first place.

    Easter will be great. My wife and I are going to Mexico for a week, as is our usual practice.

    The locals in the little town where we like to vacation, are very devoted to their faith. On Easter the sunrise Mass is so well attended that most years I find myself kneeling in the street outside the Church because there is no possible way of entering the Church. [​IMG]

    I pray that all is well with you and your family and that your Easter will be equally blessed.

    Sincerely,
    Ron
     
    #81 trying2understand, Mar 31, 2004
  2. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi Ron,
    I'm glad we agree. Probably most on this board agree as well, even if they wouldn't admit it (Ha Ha).

    Have a great time in Mexico. Enjoy the warmth!!

    My family is doing well. I am not involved in any music for Easter this year so it will be more relaxing then usual. Take care,

    Your friend in Christ,
    Brian
     
    #82 Briguy, Mar 31, 2004
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I guess you have to "Read the posts" to see the answer.

    But you could just "not read" and repeat yourself anyway eh? :rolleyes: [​IMG]

    You seem to enjoy that.

    In the mean time - that post about "NOTHING correct in the Bible" from the RC POV still stands (I guess for you anyway).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #83 BobRyan, Mar 31, 2004
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What a confession!

    As I already posted- the RC premise is that "no truth can be obtained from the Word of God".

    In essence they "believe" that even if you stumble onto truth "you can not know it".

    IF you read that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever" you can not really "know it is true" since "someone might differ with you in some other denomination".

    IF you read that "Jesus is the Son of God" you can't really "know it is true" since "Someone might differ with you in some church".

    In that "all-is-dark" model - you choose to "Believe whatever pleases you and call it faith" and you still "don't know that it is true".

    How sad that this model finds "Acceptance" among any Christian group today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #84 BobRyan, Mar 31, 2004
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #85 BobRyan, Mar 31, 2004
  6. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    *personal comments deleted*

    You will one day be called to account to God for every word that comes from your mouth.

    No doubt this will also include what you post here.

    [ April 04, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
     
    #86 trying2understand, Apr 1, 2004
  7. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    So, neither can you. Where does that leave us?

    What was the point? To prove that none of us (yourself and your faith included) can discuss the finer points of theology?

    Which part of Mexico do you guys visit?

    jason
     
    #87 jasonW*, Apr 1, 2004
  8. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    There is a difference between discussing the finer points of theology and calling someone a heretic or saying that someone is not saved. This thread is for the benefit of the more strident condemners on the board. You can probably spot them yourself, so there is no point in naming names. [​IMG]
    Cozumel :cool:
     
    #88 trying2understand, Apr 1, 2004
  9. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    So then, by this logic, the catholic church and it's leaders cannot call someone a heretic or say what is or is not necassary for salvation. They can only speculate.

    And, the same thing goes for catholics. Even if catholics truley believe that the church does have a truer understanding of the gospel and the salvation process, a catholic member cannot say that someone is a heretic, what it takes to be saved or even try to speak about the meaning of any part of the gospel (finer point hint: you are saying interpretation is a matter of faith. That goes for interpreting the catechism and other catholic church teachings as well.)!!

    So, what are you trying to say (btw: this was part of my point in another thread....we never got there because you would never answer the questions)?

    jason

    [ April 01, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: jasonW* ]
     
    #89 jasonW*, Apr 1, 2004
  10. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Jason, we can only believe based on faith. No one can not prove anything which is spiritual.

    Can you prove that you have a soul?

    Can you prove that there is a heaven?

    Can you prove that there is a God?

    No. The best that you can hope to do is the weigh the evidence and pray on it. Any supposed proof would still require faith - and it would still be an arguement in favor of your position, but not a proof of it.

    Do I believe that the Church has authority through Christ to teach? Yes. That requires faithon my part to beleive that. I do not deny that.

    I have answered your questions concerning works several times.

    Like I said in another thread, your questions concerning works are like asking, "How high is up?"

    The same questions that you want to ask concerning works can be also asked concerning faith. Your answers would be equally immeasurable from an objective stand point.

    How much faith does it take to be saved?

    How do you measure how much faith someone has?

    Does intent matter?

    You keep trying to draw me into a silly arguement with questions that can't be addressed due to the very nature of the subject.

    If you disagree with what I am saying you can begin by answering the same questions that you ask only with the word faith substituted for works.
     
    #90 trying2understand, Apr 1, 2004
  11. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    Before I read your post, I answered the question in the personal relationship thread.

    But, to sum up: Faith and works are different. You cannot simply subsitute the words. See other thread.

    jason
     
    #91 jasonW*, Apr 1, 2004
  12. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Why not?

    How much faith is enough to be saved?

    If you can't say, then how can you say that faith saves?
     
    #92 trying2understand, Apr 1, 2004
  13. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    Before you comment, you should read the other thread.

    Logical fallacy T2U used this time: false analogy

    jason
     
    #93 jasonW*, Apr 1, 2004
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Jason, pick a thread. And we can keep this discussion in one place.

    Better yet, start a new one and I'll join you there. [​IMG]
     
    #94 trying2understand, Apr 1, 2004
  15. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Hi Guys, just wanted to throw a thought in here. I have never thought of Faith as liquid that fills a cup and when it hits a certain line, "Bingo" saving faith. I have always pictured faith as a one way light switch. If the switch is off the person has no faith and is in darkness. Once the person has faith the light switch is on and the person walks in the light. I believe that is a Biblical concept of faith as well (The light and dark thing that is). Funny thing about the switch. Once flipped on the crazy thing breaks and the light is stuck on forever. I'm sure glad it only breaks in the on position, or does it??? That of couse is a whole other thread. Just my thought on faith in the NT church.

    In Christian love,
    Brian
     
    #95 Briguy, Apr 1, 2004
  16. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Briguy:

    You can think of faith as the seed God plants in the heart. It’s not a one way, on-off light switch.

    Matthew 13:19
    "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart . This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.

    Matthew 13:20
    "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

    Matthew 13:21
    yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

    Matthew 13:22
    "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

    Matthew 13:23
    "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
     
    #96 Kathryn, Apr 1, 2004
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is a classic "bait and switch" argument.

    If the context is "christian" (doubtful with some arguments) then the question is not "how do you know there is a God or a heaven" -- rather the question is "how do you know that the Bible is saying what you think it says"?

    That is an entirely DIFFERENT question than "how do you know the Bible is true".

    The RC argument here has been that even IF you are a Christian and KNOW God to be true and to exist - you "can't know anything for sure that the Bible says".

    You can't know that when you read about heaven in the Bible - you are really understanding what is written. IF someone in some other denomination DIFFERS with you then that PROVES you "can't know anything" and it PROVES that if you relying on the "Spirit of Truth" to guide you - He has failed you.

    As T2U has said "IT does not WORK".

    This strikes at the heart of exegesis, of objective Bible study, AND of sola scriptura.

    This argument claims that you CAN't prove any doctrine by the Bible much less judge ALL doctrine by the Bible - because you can't KNOW any ONE THING that the Bible says "as a fact".

    Sad - but that is where their line of reasoning "ends up".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #97 BobRyan, Apr 2, 2004
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What a confession!

    *personal comment deleted*


    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ April 04, 2004, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
     
    #98 BobRyan, Apr 2, 2004
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. Obviously -- from T2Us own confession above -- T2U got the 1,2,3 answer from me the "First time".

    #2. T2U declares that none of the the promises found in God's Word "work" as listed in 1-5.

    Read it "again" -- T2U said "The five arguements which I posted do not hold up."

    (Am I missing something here? Why pretend that this is not easy to see - T2U has already posted these confessions here).

    </font>[/QUOTE]The T2U tactic is to pretend that IF anyone anywhere differs with your understanding of truth - THEN the Holy Spirit did not work. The Bible principles listed in 1,2 and 3 "do not work" according to T2U.

    And the "proof"?

    Why the fact that some RC differs with you on some subject. (For example).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #99 BobRyan, Apr 2, 2004
  20. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Bob Ryan, I have pointed out to you the injustice that you commit in twisting my words. Anyone reading this thread can easily see for themselves that you are misrepresenting my words.

    I have asked you to cease. *personal comment deleted* I have no choice other than to shun you.

    I will no longer read nor respond to your posts.

    Whatever it is that you hoped to gain here as it relates to me is lost and your efforts fruitless.

    As I said before, one day you will be accountable to God for every word.

    [ April 04, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
     
    #100 trying2understand, Apr 2, 2004
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