What are you talking about? You seem to be living in an allegory of your own making.
Note that Bunyan would openly reprove you in your 7 ages theory. He would correct you as he never held a theory not taught in scripture.
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The "7 Church Ages" Prophecy
- Thread starter rockytopva
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- revelation seven churches
Note that Bunyan would openly reprove you in your 7 ages theory. He would correct you as he never held a theory not taught in scripture.
But.... John Bunyan spent a good bit of time in prison due to the Sardisean Anglican church.
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. - Hosea 12:10
To try to teach that which is not knowledge the bible makes use of metaphors (similitudes) and John Bunyan makes use of his metaphors in his writings in which he explains...
"In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read. First, The metaphors made use of. Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors. The metaphors in this parable (the barren fig tree) are, 1. A certain man; 2. A vineyard; 3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless; 4. A dresser; 5. Three years; 6. Digging and dunging, &c." - John Bunyan
The problem is that each man will read into the parables and come up with some kind of different interpretation. This also is what makes sermons interesting, trying to estimate how the minister is going to make use of the mysteries.
To try to teach that which is not knowledge the bible makes use of metaphors (similitudes) and John Bunyan makes use of his metaphors in his writings in which he explains...
"In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read. First, The metaphors made use of. Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors. The metaphors in this parable (the barren fig tree) are, 1. A certain man; 2. A vineyard; 3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless; 4. A dresser; 5. Three years; 6. Digging and dunging, &c." - John Bunyan
The problem is that each man will read into the parables and come up with some kind of different interpretation. This also is what makes sermons interesting, trying to estimate how the minister is going to make use of the mysteries.
Please tell me where you find that in the Bible?
how do you know that Sardis is Anglicanism?
BTW, the answer is nowhere
If you want to know.... Follow the links!
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1
Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry
The church has went through changes and transformation and it wasn't always Protestant!
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20
The seven candlesticks are the seven churches. And then in Revelation 5...
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.- Revelation 5:1-4
All to heavy just to point to seven churches that did not amount to much. I believe this refers to the entire Christian church!
The seven candlesticks are the seven churches. And then in Revelation 5...
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.- Revelation 5:1-4
All to heavy just to point to seven churches that did not amount to much. I believe this refers to the entire Christian church!
Follow the links??? Links to some website that is looking back in time and constructing a theory backwards rather than exegeting the scripture and seeing it in scripture.
Ask yourself why no Christian in 1800 plus years never saw what you think you see.
Because the history had not unraveled! I love church history! I just returned from a Piedmont Camp meeting dinner in which that place looked the same as it did when the Methodist run it 150 years ago. It also has a creek that runs next to it that at one time was needed for water.
Ego... I wish to take the ego out of this thread and not exalt one congregation (or myself) above the other.
What I would promote as pure Philadelphian… I just returned from a Piedmont Camp meeting dinner in which the place looked the same as it did when the Methodist run it 150 years ago. It also has a creek that runs next to it that at one time was needed for water. It also has a building to eat and places to stay as well…
This place looks like the old Cripple Creek camp meeting that took place in the same time frame. A George Clark Rankin and a David Sullins describes the place…
The Life of David Sullins
The Life of George Clark Rankin
Here are some of the rules to govern the Cripple Creek Camp meeting around 1823....
The document above contains the rules to governthe Cripple Creek camp meeting on the 12th day of September, 1823.
On the ninth rule it is stated, “No persons or persons are to occupy the stand except the preachers and the exhorters.” The Methodist in those days had a class of minister called exhorters. These so called “Exhorters” would encourage and help breathe life into the camp meeting of the day. And what importance they put on exhortation as the exhorter class had a place with the preachers and evangelists!
On the fourteenth rule it is stated that females sit on the left hand from the stand and the males on the right. This was stated also in David Sullins time as a way to keep order in the service.
Pictured below is Robert Sheffey, who was more of the exhorter than the preacher. The Bob Jones University also made a movie of the guy. It was said of him in The Life of George Clark Rankin and beginning on page 239...
I passed my examinations and that year I was sent to the Wytheville Station and Circuit. That was adjoining my former charge. We reached the old parsonage on the pike just out of Wytheville as Rev. B. W. S. Bishop moved out. Charley Bishop was then a little tow-headed boy. He is now the learned Regent of Southwestern University. The parsonage was an old two-and-a-half-story structure with nine rooms and it looked a little like Hawthorne's house with the seven gables. It was the lonesomest-looking old house I ever saw. There was no one there to meet us, for we had not notified anybody of the time we would arrive.
Think of taking a young bride to that sort of a mansion! But she was brave and showed no sign of disappointment. That first night we felt like two whortleberries in a Virginia tobacco wagonbed. We had room and to spare, but it was scantily furnished with specimens as antique as those in Noah's ark. But in a week or so we were invited out to spend the day with a good family, and when we went back we found the doors fastened just as we had left them, but when we entered a bedroom was elegantly furnished with everything modern and the parlor was in fine shape. The ladies had been there and done the work. How much does the preacher owe to the good women of the Church!
The circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.
I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.
The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.
One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.
The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.
He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.
He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.
It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.
This place looks like the old Cripple Creek camp meeting that took place in the same time frame. A George Clark Rankin and a David Sullins describes the place…
The Life of David Sullins
The Life of George Clark Rankin
Here are some of the rules to govern the Cripple Creek Camp meeting around 1823....
The document above contains the rules to governthe Cripple Creek camp meeting on the 12th day of September, 1823.
On the ninth rule it is stated, “No persons or persons are to occupy the stand except the preachers and the exhorters.” The Methodist in those days had a class of minister called exhorters. These so called “Exhorters” would encourage and help breathe life into the camp meeting of the day. And what importance they put on exhortation as the exhorter class had a place with the preachers and evangelists!
On the fourteenth rule it is stated that females sit on the left hand from the stand and the males on the right. This was stated also in David Sullins time as a way to keep order in the service.
Pictured below is Robert Sheffey, who was more of the exhorter than the preacher. The Bob Jones University also made a movie of the guy. It was said of him in The Life of George Clark Rankin and beginning on page 239...
I passed my examinations and that year I was sent to the Wytheville Station and Circuit. That was adjoining my former charge. We reached the old parsonage on the pike just out of Wytheville as Rev. B. W. S. Bishop moved out. Charley Bishop was then a little tow-headed boy. He is now the learned Regent of Southwestern University. The parsonage was an old two-and-a-half-story structure with nine rooms and it looked a little like Hawthorne's house with the seven gables. It was the lonesomest-looking old house I ever saw. There was no one there to meet us, for we had not notified anybody of the time we would arrive.
Think of taking a young bride to that sort of a mansion! But she was brave and showed no sign of disappointment. That first night we felt like two whortleberries in a Virginia tobacco wagonbed. We had room and to spare, but it was scantily furnished with specimens as antique as those in Noah's ark. But in a week or so we were invited out to spend the day with a good family, and when we went back we found the doors fastened just as we had left them, but when we entered a bedroom was elegantly furnished with everything modern and the parlor was in fine shape. The ladies had been there and done the work. How much does the preacher owe to the good women of the Church!
The circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.
I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.
The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.
One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.
The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.
He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.
He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.
It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.
The Cripple Creek Camp Meeting, pictured below, where it was said, "The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher." - George Clark Rankin
In all my decades in studying the area I have never met the first soul who has ever heard of the place....
In all my decades in studying the area I have never met the first soul who has ever heard of the place....
I also don't mind visiting churches of other denominations. Here is a church in Bora Bora, Polynesia I took during a cruise in which they amazingly left unlocked. "These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;" - Revelation 2:1. I believe Christ walks in the midst of all who call on his name.
@rockytopva wrote:... "Because history had not unraveled..."
This statement above proves that the 7 church age theory is not found in scripture. If it were in the book of Revelation then the church would have understood it as original readers in the 1st Century. Each church would have recognized they represented an age. But, and this is a HUGE BUT, no one ever understood it this way. No one until some Western Civilization philosopher looked at the churches and created a theory based upon his own personal construction of Western Civilization. Only then, after this human constructed his own "tower of churches," did anyone even imagine this theory. This "snake oil salesman" then went to churches hawking his philosophy and many theologically unsound churches bought what this man was selling. No doubt this person had maps and books for sale that the ignorant could purchase and pass on so that more of his books were sold. This gave force to this philosophy that has no biblical support to be hawked by imitators who also made money off the theologically ignorant.
How do I know this? Because these "snake oil salesmen" came to my church and hawked it to the congregation who bought it. I saw the maps and diagrams and garbage they sold as though the text made the claim, when really the claim never came from God, it always came from human philosophers making money off the ignorant.
Notice that there is zero internal support from Revelation ever given in this thread. It is always some call out to something outside of the Bible. It is a not-so-clever manipulation of western civilization history forced into the Bible.
Folks, whenever you see such forcing you need to run the red flag up the pole and call it what it is....Hokum!
This statement above proves that the 7 church age theory is not found in scripture. If it were in the book of Revelation then the church would have understood it as original readers in the 1st Century. Each church would have recognized they represented an age. But, and this is a HUGE BUT, no one ever understood it this way. No one until some Western Civilization philosopher looked at the churches and created a theory based upon his own personal construction of Western Civilization. Only then, after this human constructed his own "tower of churches," did anyone even imagine this theory. This "snake oil salesman" then went to churches hawking his philosophy and many theologically unsound churches bought what this man was selling. No doubt this person had maps and books for sale that the ignorant could purchase and pass on so that more of his books were sold. This gave force to this philosophy that has no biblical support to be hawked by imitators who also made money off the theologically ignorant.
How do I know this? Because these "snake oil salesmen" came to my church and hawked it to the congregation who bought it. I saw the maps and diagrams and garbage they sold as though the text made the claim, when really the claim never came from God, it always came from human philosophers making money off the ignorant.
Notice that there is zero internal support from Revelation ever given in this thread. It is always some call out to something outside of the Bible. It is a not-so-clever manipulation of western civilization history forced into the Bible.
Folks, whenever you see such forcing you need to run the red flag up the pole and call it what it is....Hokum!
Whether I am accepted or not to me is no big deal. The fact that people so easily forget the quality of revival we had in the long ago does. People can so easily get tied into their careers and material goals that the things of Christ become very low in the list of priorities. I am sharing the material like in the pdf document linked below and reminding folks of our rich heritage.
A Rich Spiritual Heritage
A Rich Spiritual Heritage
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:13-14
rocky, you are speaking as a natural man, not spiritual. You are promoting a man-made theory not ever taught by God. Now you abuse God's word in 1 Corinthians 2 and attempt to tell me I am not spiritually minded when your entire theory is not taught by God, the Holy Spirit.
Your theory comes from man...not God. Know this as an absolute fact. What you are teaching is not spiritual, it is carnal flesh being taught and you even admit it when you say that the early church could not have known.
There were profound spiritual changes that occurred in our lifetime. I would be all ears if a minister were to speak on the Laodicean effect and the Christians response in our day.
Are you all ears to being a Laodicean in your own walk with God?
Let go of the ages theory. Do what all your brother's and sister's have done since John wrote the letter by examining your own heart to see if Jesus has these same words for you. That is the purpose of the Revelation, to show us Jesus will for us in our own walk with Him. The whole ages theory is a distraction away from looking at your own heart.
So many times Christ says to the churches..
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3:22
Therefore a good sermon to this Laodicean bunch would be something like what I picked up in a cassette labeled, "Worldliness or Godliness" and I made a YouTube video out of it... And what do you know it was at a GARBC Regular Baptist revival!