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The Abomination of Usury and Interest, and the Slavery of Debt

So every Christian who pays his mortgage faithfully to give his wife and children a home to live and grow in is, according to you, evil?

Yes, because not only are they in disobedience to the Law of God, but also the clear instruction of Paul to be "indebted to no one" in relation to the command to not borrow. And not only are they borrowing, but they are borrowing on money that is given at interest, which according to scripture, is an abomination.

And not just that, BUT also,

All who wish to follow Jesus Christ are called to HUMBLE themselves, which means to sell possessions and ALL properties, in accordance to what Jesus Christ taught, and also what the early assemblies did.... to have very little and only what you need, so if you follow the actual instructions of the Lord, there should be little concern regarding borrowing/interest/usury to try to gain possessions. Its the people that want to amass possessions that find themselves engaging in these evils. Many will cry out "lord, lord" on that great and dreadful day, but because they did not actually do the will of God they will be cast out. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth indeed.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
All who wish to follow Jesus Christ
You say in your profile that you are Jewish. Are you a follower of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

which means to sell possessions and ALL properties, in accordance to what Jesus Christ taught, and also what the early assemblies did...
Actually that is not what it means. If you are interested in hearing what it does mean just ask. I will be glad to explain it to you.

Many will cry out "lord, lord" on that great and dreadful day, but because they did not actually do the will of God they will be cast out.
So, you are saying that salvation is based on what you do rather than on what Christ did for you? You do know He was talking to the Jews then, right?

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth indeed.
Yes. Those who reject Christ and try to keep the law will have a very bad time of it. :(
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, because not only are they in disobedience to the Law of God...

Are you in disobedience to God is you don't hate your parents or children? [Luke 14:26]
 
You say in your profile that you are Jewish. Are you a follower of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Actually that is not what it means. If you are interested in hearing what it does mean just ask. I will be glad to explain it to you.

So, you are saying that salvation is based on what you do rather than on what Christ did for you? You do know He was talking to the Jews then, right?

Yes. Those who reject Christ and try to keep the law will have a very bad time of it. :(

I am a messianic Israelite, so yes I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Sell all your possessions means precisely what it says, or why do you think the Lord himself said, "it is easier for a camel to enter into the eye of a needle than a rich man into the kingdom of God" and "whoever does not sell what he has he cannot be my disciple" and "you cannot serve money and God". Salvation is based on choice of God, for even before coming to belief, God has already chosen whom he will save from before the foundation of the world, so it is not a matter of who runneth or walketh, but of whom God has chosen to have mercy and compassion. And by that choice, a man then comes to belief, which subsequently leads to works. The Law has not been abolished, so anyone who discards the Law will one day be called "lawless" and be cast out.
 
Yes, because not only are they in disobedience to the Law of God...

Are you in disobedience to God is you don't hate your parents or children? [Luke 14:26]

Did Jesus Christ not also say you must eat his flesh and drink his blood, yet drinking blood is a sin in accordance to the Law? So did it not occur to you that the saying "to hate mother and father" has an interpretation just as the saying to eat flesh and drink blood? Or will you take that saying literally just as the catholics do concerning the elements of the "eucharist" becoming actual flesh and blood, to fulfill the saying of Jesus Christ that was meant as a figure of speech?
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Did Jesus Christ not also say you must eat his flesh and drink his blood, yet drinking blood is a sin in accordance to the Law? So did it not occur to you that the saying "to hate mother and father" has an interpretation just as the saying to eat flesh and drink blood? Or will you take that saying literally just as the catholics do concerning the elements of the "eucharist" becoming actual flesh and blood, to fulfill the saying of Jesus Christ that was meant as a figure of speech?

And what do you take literally? Never be a penny in debt, to owe no man anything, violated by Philemon when Paul told him he owes him [Paul] his very soul? I'm sure Catholics, by the way, think it's a "figure of speech" to "abstain from blood" when considering the eucharist.

So go ahead. Keep on picking your "figures of speech" from scripture and picking your literalisms. Ripe or not.
 
And what do you take literally? Never be a penny in debt, to owe no man anything, violated by Philemon when Paul told him he owes him [Paul] his very soul? I'm sure Catholics, by the way, think it's a "figure of speech" to "abstain from blood" when considering the eucharist.

So go ahead. Keep on picking your "figures of speech" from scripture and picking your literalisms. Ripe or not.

I interpret scripture correctly, and not like many who twist it to suit their wicked lifestyles, even many who call themselves "believers". Let him who has ears, let him hear, as it is said.
 
Let us discuss what is said here. Let's not direct someone to another site. Post your views here and there will be a discussion.

I tried posting a study on here but your forum has a character max. Sad! If you set the character limit higher, than I would be glad to post the studies here instead of doing them as links, for discussion (at least 75,000 characters).
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
That is indeed sad. We all wanted to see those 75,000 characters.

"He also who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter. I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the earth. Behold, you have what is yours.'

"But his lord answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I didn't sow, and gather where I didn't scatter. You ought therefore to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back my own with interest. Take away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.

For to everyone who has will be given, and he will have abundance, but from him who doesn't have, even that which he has will be taken away. Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
How do you pay for a $260,000 house with an $80,000 per year salary without borrowing.

Aren't you aware that most people buy homes, cars, and education on credit?
It can be done. Borrowing money is not a necessity, it is simply what we as Americans are accustomed to doing. My grandparents were dirt poor when they hit married. Never borrowed a dime. Owned four houses when they died. Owned a lot more than that before they got tired of managing them and sold some off.
 

FollowTheWay

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Institutions are people.
No, they are not. That's the error introduced by the unconstitutional "Citizens vs. United" Supreme Court decision that put the control of America into the hands of the big corporations rather than the people.
 

FollowTheWay

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is all prohibited, and this is precisely why there is mention of a "mark of the beast" in the book of Revelation, because it relates to sins of money, which are common widespread practice in western nations, so much so, that it is very difficult to buy or sell without engaging in some form of interest or usury.

You rely heavily on the law of Moses which defined the first covenant. All of the Bible is useful for instruction and support but the first covenant was completely replaced by God's Grace under the second covenant recognizing that it is impossible to keep the law. In a real sense, the first covenant was nailed to the cross and fulfilled by Jesus. Only He could do that because only He was without sin. He said that He did not come to do away with the law but rather to fulfill it. But His summary of the commandments (love God and your neighbor) included all previous commandments and more. He also said If you love Me you will keep my commandments. We can only attempt to do this through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and God's Grace. What did Jesus say about "usury?" He used it in a parable.

Matthew 25:14-30English Standard Version (ESV)
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servantsa]">[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,b]">[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.c]">[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
It is all prohibited, and this is precisely why there is mention of a "mark of the beast" in the book of Revelation, because it relates to sins of money, which are common widespread practice in western nations, so much so, that it is very difficult to buy or sell without engaging in some form of interest or usury.
The Sins of money is the "love of money" not the use of money.

I contend that all usury is interest, but all interest is NOT usury.
Do you agree or disagree?
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
I am a messianic Israelite, so yes I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Sell all your possessions means precisely what it says, ...
This verse is from Luke 18:22 and He is speaking to one individual for a specific reason. The point being - was he willing to do so. This was NOT a command to all Christians.

"whoever does not sell what he has he cannot be my disciple"

Reference please?
 
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Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Okay - Abortion for another thread- lets stay on topic here No hijacking allowed

and now back to the OP
 
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