The Abomination of Usury and Interest, and the Slavery of Debt

[Reynolds]

That is exactly what I said earlier. As Americans we confuse wants and necessities. We do not have to borrow money. We choose to live a lifestyle that causes us to borrow money. I am not strictly opposed to borrowing money. I am simply pointing out we choose to borrow.

 

[GordonWayneWatts]

...I don't know. I graduated from high school in 1983 and I had to take loans because my family couldn't afford the state school I went to. It wasn't cheap back then either.

I'm class of 1984 from Plant City Senior High School (both Plant city, and my current hometown of Lakeland are between Tampa & Orlando), so I'm about the same age. However, when I lost my merit scholarship to community college (because I was working 2 jobs and let my grades slip), and then wasn't told I could reapply until it was too late, I took time off, and didn't go back to 'regular' college until January of 1996, so, for me, it was VERY expensive by then - both because tuition was much higher in 1996, as well as because I no longer had my scholarship. I tried worknig while in college, and this was my reward.

 

[GordonWayneWatts]

Gordon, the Law is our tutor, pointing us towards Christ (Gal. 3:24). However, the Law cannot save because it is not of faith:...

There are three aspects of the Law:

1. Ceremonial
2. Judicial
3. Moral...That is what it is like to live by the law. It is something that no one can complete, save the Christ!

Fascinating. While I still can't quite get the fullness of it, thank you for weighing in. My gut feeling says that obeying the law does not save you, but being saved allows the Spirit of God to enter, and helps you obey the law better than you could if you were not saved & filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[GordonWayneWatts]

The Federal government has their mitts elbow deep in nearly every school in America. Like health care facilities that are wedded to Medicare, colleges have artificially increased rates in order to garner more federal funding. It's a never ending game of increased costs that will, sooner than later, bankrupt our entire government system. At present we just keep generating more and more debt that we cannot pay back. We will eventually be called to account.

I agree on all counts, but write to clarify that the Goober-mint .. I meant ... GOVERNMENT interferes with BOTH subsidies (my gripe) AND excess regulation (a common gripe & complaint among other fellow-conservatives). Both are bad. Regulation is not bad, in and of itself, and we do have need of some subsidies (read: "Limited" government, not "Lack of" Government), but like all things, too much of a good thing is not good. Yes, we WILL go bankrupt, and Rev. 6:6, in the Amplified Version of the Bible, clearly shows one ramification: Inflation so great that a day's ration of food will cost a day's wages. Jesus help us all...

 

[GordonWayneWatts]

Yes, really. In the specific instance to which I refer anyway. You had a huge disparity between industrialized and agrarian. My grandparents farmed. I remember my grandmother told me that one year their net income was $1.15 per day of you based it in a 5 day work week. $300 a year. Making $300 a year, they owned a house.

Well, I do admit that maybe not all things were less expensive. However, even in the example you give, here, it took almost exactly one years' wages to buy a house, meaning that they needed a little extra time if they spent on other things, like household expenses. Or, of you mean "net" income was everything above and beyond household expenses, than only one year. However, anymore, it takes 10 to 30 years to pay for a house. So, even using your example, things were less expensive back then. Right?..

 

[GordonWayneWatts]

That is exactly what I said earlier. As Americans we confuse wants and necessities. We do not have to borrow money. We choose to live a lifestyle that causes us to borrow money. I am not strictly opposed to borrowing money. I am simply pointing out we choose to borrow.

Whatever else may be confusing or points where we don't fully agree, I I agree with you here: We do live beyond our means anymore, and this (as you say) is why we end up borrowing so much.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Debt is not a sin, but it is not a good thing either. We grow quite comfortable with a 30 year mortgage and its not necessary. Getting a new care by going into payments for five years is also not necessary. Any debt we get into should be worked to pay off as soon as possible.

But the dept keeps growing.....Im referring to Medical, Education, Property Taxes while the income levels stagnate. God forbid you loose your job or get sick.

 

[Revmitchell]

educational debt is a choice

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm class of 1984 from Plant City Senior High School (both Plant city, and my current hometown of Lakeland are between Tampa & Orlando), so I'm about the same age. However, when I lost my merit scholarship to community college (because I was working 2 jobs and let my grades slip), and then wasn't told I could reapply until it was too late, I took time off, and didn't go back to 'regular' college until January of 1996, so, for me, it was VERY expensive by then - both because tuition was much higher in 1996, as well as because I no longer had my scholarship. I tried worknig while in college, and this was my reward.

I am a graduate from Vanguard High Ocala 1984

 

[TCassidy]

The law can not save. It is like a mirror. We look into the law and see what is wrong with us. This morning I looked into the mirror and saw that my hair needed combing, my face needed washing, and I needed a shave. But the mirror could not comb my hair, it could not wash my face, and it could not shave me. All it did was show me what was wrong, and that directed me to the very things that could fix the problem. The brush, the wash cloth, and the razor.

The law tells us where we are wrong but cannot fix it.

The law directs us to Christ for salvation. Then Christ directs us back to the law for regulation. The law gives us the goal to attain. We will not, in this life, perfectly attain that goal, but we can still try.

It is better to aim too high and miss, than not aim at all and succeed.

 

[Reynolds]

Well, I do admit that maybe not all things were less expensive. However, even in the example you give, here, it took almost exactly one years' wages to buy a house, meaning that they needed a little extra time if they spent on other things, like household expenses. Or, of you mean "net" income was everything above and beyond household expenses, than only one year. However, anymore, it takes 10 to 30 years to pay for a house. So, even using your example, things were less expensive back then. Right?..

A house cost more than $300 back then. A model A cost close to $500.

 

[Reynolds]

I am a graduate from Vanguard High Ocala 1984

Ocala is my favorite town. Home base for our cave diving expeditions.

 

[maddog]

My guess would be that Interest was a counterbalance or a correction factor for Inflation, with the intent and goal to be that the lender get back the amount of money that had the same "buying power" as it had when lent. But I will go out on a limb, here, & guess that things went off-rail when people (with our sinful nature) went overboard, and used excessive force - MORE than was necessary for legitimate (financial) self-defense. Does this seem tenable?

All lenders.... banks, credit unions, the government, the mob....whoever, make their money from charging a fee to loan money. The bible says that there is nothing new under the sun. So in Jesus's day it was the same. The lenders made money by charging interest for the temporary use of their money. When I put money into a savings account, I gain a small interest on my money. The interest is a small portion of the money made by the bank by them lending my money out, and then collecting the interest. When I put my money in a bank, I take a small part in the usuary gained by the bank.

 

[Reynolds]

All lenders.... banks, credit unions, the government, the mob....whoever, make their money from charging a fee to loan money. The bible says that there is nothing new under the sun. So in Jesus's day it was the same. The lenders made money by charging interest for the temporary use of their money. When I put money into a savings account, I gain a small interest on my money. The interest is a small portion of the money made by the bank by them lending my money out, and then collecting the interest. When I put my money in a bank, I take a small part in the usuary gained by the bank.

Yeah, that's the general concept. The Federal Reserve now makes it not so simple.

 

[GordonWayneWatts]

educational debt is a choice

Oh, really? When you are told from your youth on up that if you don't get an education, you'll be lucky to be a burger flipper at McDonald[[**]], how is it a "choice?" Really, few are like Bill Gates who can get a good job without an education. Moreover, back in the day, back when America had less crime, lower divorce (and when you could leave your house door unlocked at night without worries of break-ins), you could get a career job with only a high school diploma. Now, however, you can't do that in most cases, and college is necessary "just to have a chance." Moreover, quality of US Education has gone down (as proven by how our high school and college students keep dropping in world rankings and being unable to do basic math at a cash register in their head, without a calculator), while at the same time, costs are becoming more ands more unfordable.

I think it's time, again, to see the illegalities imposed upon borrowers, as outlined in my lawsuit in the infamous Tetslaff case, and as hinted in my guest column to the Lakeland Ledger (Lakeland being between Tampa & Orlando, Fla.). I include one recent filing in the infamous Schiavo case to reassure my peeps and hommies that I'm truly a far-right, pro-Life, Constitutional Conservative Christian Baptist. (I did better than Jeb Bush and Schiavo's blood family because I copied Jesus' food/water arguments, instead of the valid - but much weaker -feeding tube arguments they all used!)

Yeah, Education is a "choice" - like eating, drinking, emergency medical care, and living in a house. Please look up the textbook definition of the word 'monopoly' before you consider disputing my claims on this head.

P.S.: I'm not trying to insult you, I assure you, but I do strongly disagree. Reminder, please see the attachments, in my post here, which include one guest column and 2 lawsuits, one of which almost won in court all by myself - excepting that Jesus helped me.

[[**]] I'm not trying to insult McD employees, as it is an honest living (and I once worked there), but it's a dead-end job for most, and basically a beginner's or 'part-time' job that can't pay a living.

ADDENDUM / UPDATE: I noticed that I mis-read your reply. I thought it said "Education" was a choice, and that was why I replied as such. You really said "Education debt" is a choice. However, since almost all education is so expensive that you would need to go in debt, then for the most part, education debt is not a choice (but a forced reality), unless you get some sort of scholarship. Even FSU, where I went, was the cheapest school around, but even it was very expensive.

Sources:
[1] In Re: GORDON WAYNE WATTS (as next friend of THERESA MARIE 'TERRI' SCHIAVO), No. SC03-2420 (Fla. Feb.23, 2005), denied 4-3 on rehearing. (Watts got 42.7% of his panel)http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/dispositions/2005/2/03-2420reh.pdf
[2] In Re: JEB BUSH, GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, ET AL. v. MICHAEL SCHIAVO, GUARDIAN: THERESA SCHIAVO, No. SC04-925 (Fla. Oct.21, 2004), denied 7-0 on rehearing. (Bush got 0.0% of his panel before the same court)http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/dispositions/2004/10/04-925reh.pdf
[3] Schiavo ex rel. Schindler v. Schiavo ex rel. Schiavo, 403 F.3d 1223, 2005 WL 648897 (11th Cir. Mar.23, 2005), denied 2-1 on appeal. (Terri Schiavo's own blood family only got 33.3% of their panel on the Federal Appeals level)http://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/files/200511556.pdf

 

[GordonWayneWatts]

I am a graduate from Vanguard High Ocala 1984

I am glad to see your signature, which says "If you support Planned Parenthood you are not, in fact, pro-life." (y) We're all humans and occasionally disagree, but we're on the same team. (I consider myself a pro-Life right-wing nut, aka a true. Christian.)

 

[Reynolds]

Oh, really? When you are told from your youth on up that if you don't get an education, you'll be lucky to be a burger flipper at McDonald[[**]], how is it a "choice?" Really, few are like Bill Gates who can get a good job without an education. Moreover, back in the day, back when America had less crime, lower divorce (and when you could leave your house door unlocked at night without worries of break-ins), you could get a career job with only a high school diploma. Now, however, you can't do that in most cases, and college is necessary "just to have a chance." Moreover, quality of US Education has gone down (as proven by how our high school and college students keep dropping in world rankings and being unable to do basic math at a cash register in their head, without a calculator), while at the same time, costs are becoming more ands more unfordable.

I think it's time, again, to see the illegalities imposed upon borrowers, as outlined in my lawsuit in the infamous Tetslaff case, and as hinted in my guest column to the Lakeland Ledger (Lakeland being between Tampa & Orlando, Fla.). I include one recent filing in the infamous Schiavo case to reassure my peeps and hommies that I'm truly a far-right, pro-Life, Constitutional Conservative Christian Baptist. (I did better than Jeb Bush and Schiavo's blood family because I copied Jesus' food/water arguments, instead of the valid - but much weaker -feeding tube arguments they all used!)

Yeah, Education is a "choice" - like eating, drinking, emergency medical care, and living in a house. Please look up the textbook definition of the word 'monopoly' before you consider disputing my claims on this head.

P.S.: I'm not trying to insult you, I assure you, but I do strongly disagree. Reminder, please see the attachments, in my post here, which include one guest column and 2 lawsuits, one of which almost won in court all by myself - excepting that Jesus helped me.

[[**]] I'm not trying to insult McD employees, as it is an honest living (and I once worked there), but it's a dead-end job for most, and basically a beginner's or 'part-time' job that can't pay a living.

ADDENDUM / UPDATE: I noticed that I mis-read your reply. I thought it said "Education" was a choice, and that was why I replied as such. You really said "Education debt" is a choice. However, since almost all education is so expensive that you would need to go in debt, then for the most part, education debt is not a choice (but a forced reality), unless you get some sort of scholarship. Even FSU, where I went, was the cheapest school around, but even it was very expensive.

Sources:
[1] In Re: GORDON WAYNE WATTS (as next friend of THERESA MARIE 'TERRI' SCHIAVO), No. SC03-2420 (Fla. Feb.23, 2005), denied 4-3 on rehearing. (Watts got 42.7% of his panel)http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/dispositions/2005/2/03-2420reh.pdf
[2] In Re: JEB BUSH, GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, ET AL. v. MICHAEL SCHIAVO, GUARDIAN: THERESA SCHIAVO, No. SC04-925 (Fla. Oct.21, 2004), denied 7-0 on rehearing. (Bush got 0.0% of his panel before the same court)http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/dispositions/2004/10/04-925reh.pdf
[3] Schiavo ex rel. Schindler v. Schiavo ex rel. Schiavo, 403 F.3d 1223, 2005 WL 648897 (11th Cir. Mar.23, 2005), denied 2-1 on appeal. (Terri Schiavo's own blood family only got 33.3% of their panel on the Federal Appeals level)http://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/files/200511556.pdf

Higher education is optional. I have two degrees. Never made much money with either. The lord blessed me with talented hands and the ability to build anything I want to and fix anything I want. I wasted time and money on college. Consumed a lot of alcohol. Etc. Etc. The field I made my money in has absolutely nothing to do with my degrees.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh, really?

yep

 

[Reynolds]

But the dept keeps growing.....Im referring to Medical, Education, Property Taxes while the income levels stagnate. God forbid you loose your job or get sick.

I guess I just was reared too old fashioned. I have always followed my Grannys advice. She said "don't live so high you can't make it on one salary." Meaning, if one loses their job, you can still pay the bills. Now medical, that's a whole other story. No one can adequately plan for catastrophic health bills.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess I just was reared too old fashioned. I have always followed my Grannys advice. She said "don't live so high you can't make it on one salary." Meaning, if one loses their job, you can still pay the bills. Now medical, that's a whole other story. No one can adequately plan for catastrophic health bills.

I was raised poor & given the same advise. The insurance companies, together with the Medical ......I hate to say it, profession killed my mother. Looks like they are trying to take my wife away as well.