The Absolute Decree of Reprobation Expounded

[Protestant]

Can I play this game too?

My Children, Pray You Are One Of The Pre-Chosen

Judgment based on nothing but His Glory……


The Absolute Decree of Reprobation Expounded


Part 1​

Our Hyper-Determinist/Calvinist/non-Volitional friends are fanatical when making the case for God hating most – pre-determining evil to most without exception – the world’s inhabitants. Isaiah 45:7 is central to their theology.


Our Hyper-Determinist/Calvinist/non-Volitional friends are also fanatical when making the case for Christ dying for merely His few specially pre-selected – no hope without exception -- the world’s inhabitants.


Favorite proof texts:


Rom 9:20-22

(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

...

 

[SovereignGrace]

To piggyback off of Brother Protestant's OP...


A 15 year old Zaevion Dobson's family will be presented the 'Arthur Ashe Courage Award' this July during the Espy's, ESPN's version of the Emmy for sport's related awards. He had shielded 3 girls and took all the bullets to save their lives.

Carry this over to the crosswork of Christ and we see the same thing. He, in the stead of His sheep, stood in between us and God and took every bullet God fired. He died so that we could live. This young man died so that these three teen girls could live.

 

[utilyan]

So God shot Jesus. Child Abuse atonement.

A drunk could have written better theology.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So God shot Jesus. Child Abuse atonement.

A drunk could have written better theology.

I used that scenario as an allegory. God did not literally shoot His Son to death, but He did kill Him. The Penal Substitutionary Atonement theology is correct. When Christ 'became' sin, God dealt with His Son in the same exact manner as if it was you or I.

God made him who had no sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.[2 Corinthians 5:21]

There was a double imputation that took place. He was imputed our sin so that we could be imputed His righteousness.

 

[utilyan]

I used that scenario as an allegory. God did not literally shoot His Son to death, but He did kill Him. The Penal Substitutionary Atonement theology is correct. When Christ 'became' sin, God dealt with His Son in the same exact manner as if it was you or I.

God made him who had no sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.[2 Corinthians 5:21]

There was a double imputation that took place. He was imputed our sin so that we could be imputed His righteousness.

Lets say you owe the bank 1000$. You deserve to pay it. And you don't have the money.
So a good friend of yours JAY says to the bank I will pay for it and he puts up 1000$
The Bank takes the 1000$

How much did the bank forgive you? ZERO. They didn't forgive you at all, they just took their payment.

For the bank to FORGIVE it just cancels the bill. Actual forgiveness means they would let you off despite ability to pay.

In other words your idea is like a pagan monster God. He NEVER forgives he is going to get his appeasement one way or another.



Matthew 18
23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Notice the man has no means to repay but the lord felt compassion. He didn't say ok Ill give you a chance to repay neither did anyone walk up to pay. This is actual forgiveness in action. He has no debt.


What you are saying is God the father is incapable of forgiveness. Worst then that is the idea suffering is some how a currency to satisfy his sadistic glee.

God would never turn his back on Jesus.

 

[JonC]

To piggyback off of Brother Protestant's OP...


A 15 year old Zaevion Dobson's family will be presented the 'Arthur Ashe Courage Award' this July during the Espy's, ESPN's version of the Emmy for sport's related awards. He had shielded 3 girls and took all the bullets to save their lives.

Carry this over to the crosswork of Christ and we see the same thing. He, in the stead of His sheep, stood in between us and God and took every bullet God fired. He died so that we could live. This young man died so that these three teen girls could live.

I think that this is a good illustration of Christ laying down His life. But the illustration falls apart if applied to the Father (using the shooter to illustrate God's act of offering His Son as a "guilt offering").

 

[Protestant]

Utilyan wrote:

“Lets say you owe the bank 1000$. You deserve to pay it. And you don't have the money.
So a good friend of yours JAY says to the bank I will pay for it and he puts up 1000$
The Bank takes the 1000$

How much did the bank forgive you? ZERO. They didn't forgive you at all, they just took their payment.

For the bank to FORGIVE it just cancels the bill. Actual forgiveness means they would let you off despite ability to pay.

In other words your idea is like a pagan monster God. He NEVER forgives he is going to get his appeasement one way or another………………….Notice the man has no means to repay but the lord felt compassion. He didn't say ok Ill give you a chance to repay neither did anyone walk up to pay. This is actual forgiveness in action. He has no debt..”
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It is true the debt model is used by Jesus to give illumination as to how salvation works. However, a private creditor has the right to forgive a debt outright, without any payment required. God, on the other hand, is not a private creditor like Bank of America or Grandpa.

He is the sovereign righteous Ruler and Judge of all creation who must, of necessity, punish that which does not conform to the rules of His government which He has instituted and which cannot be forgiven without retribution exacted.

This is due to the fact that our Lord cannot deny Himself.

Justice is an integral part of His very essence.

As holy righteous just God, He cannot abide sin under His rule.

With sin come consequences.

The animal sacrifices are proof of this principle.

Our holy God required death: the shedding of animal blood to make temporary atonement for the sins of Israel.

The initial consequence of sin all mankind is now experiencing is that death of the body.

Unless satisfaction is made on behalf of the sinner, the second and ultimate consequence of sin is the Lake of Fire.

The animal sacrifices were but a type and foreshadow of Christ, the perfect sacrifice who made satisfaction to God’s justice, turning away His wrath.

“It is finished” = Payment Made in Full = Justice is Served

Proof that payment was accepted by the Father is evidenced in His resurrection (Romans 4:25).

Sadly, our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cal friends cannot wrap their heads around the fact that since payment was made in full by Christ, there must be a biblical reason why most are now awaiting, in Hell, their final judgment/condemnation.

The answer consists of the fact that Christ paid, in full, the sins of those given Him by the Father…….including the sin of unbelief.

Please note God did not ask our permission or counsel when sending Christ to pay our sin debt.

Nor does He need our permission to be born of the flesh, as well as born of the Spirit.

The non-Elect/Reprobate are passed by, God having chosen not to be merciful unto them, Christ not having paid their sin debt on the cross.

For wise and holy reasons God does not disclose why some are chosen and others passed by.

We must accept the fact that all which God does is by definition holy, good and righteous.

Those passed by are left in their disobedient, unbelieving natures to which they were born.

Our all-wise, omnipotent God always knew that man, left to his own devices, would NEVER comply in obedience to what He rightfully commands.

That would include the command to not eat the fruit from a certain tree.

That would also include the command to repent and believe the Gospel.

For without efficacious grace, which is not owed anyone, man will fail every time.

Therefore, by sending Christ a propitiation for the sins of His people (the Elect), the means to achieve God’s purpose was also included as His gift.

That would include effectual calling, repentance unto life, justification, sanctification and glorification.

Paul’s ‘golden chain’ is quite clear that all things necessary to salvation are God’s doing, to whom belongs all the glory.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified (Romans 8:30).

Therefore, our Lord cannot, with the wave of His hand, declare sinners absolved of their sin.

Before He can forgive, satisfaction must be made by the only One who was without sin.

As Sovereign Grace said, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

 

[utilyan]

I hear a lot of "God can't" 's I hear a angry God.

Anger only comes when someone is IGNORANT and FRUSTRATED with no solution. God is not an APE.

True Justice brings back the balance. REVENGE only seeks suffering for suffering's sake to satisfy a EVIL sadism.

Your God never forgives anyone. <-- That's the line of contemplation

He gets paid for sin. Your God is what I'd imagine Satan to be. Satan says Pay me and you can rape all you want, kill all you want.

Your GOD does not forgive anyone. If I could chant that over and over maybe a light bulb will pop in your head.

PAY 2 SIN. If he "collects" that is not forgiveness.



Often hear how Calvinist are SO SUPRISED that God would even save a portion of people, Because he has the right to save NNE.

In other words- Calvinist are SHOCKED and SUPRISED that God is HALF a JERK rather then a COMPLETE JERK they expected.


While I'm of the other contrast. I would NOT be surprised If God turned out to be so perfect a hero that he saves everyone.

The flaw is your imposing your "totally depraved" sense of Justice and expect God to have it.

God is not "totally depraved".



Your God is incapable of forgiveness. You already admitted it last post.

How much more do you have to ACCUSE God of so much Evil? Shooting his son?

Man If I had to find a faith filled with COWARDS, you have made it easy. Cause I don't care 10000 evil Gods tried to punk me around, I am not for Evil.

What you have issued as the Character of God is more insulting then anything the devil could put together himself.

A God who cannot forgive.

2 Corinthians 5
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

God was in CHRIST. Not counting or if you read KING JAMES " not imputing their trespasses unto them" Not only did God FORGIVE completely. He entirely dropped the charges which is a notch greater then NOT GUILTY.

 

[Protestant]

Utilyan's reply is not only incoherent, it is devoid of Christian truth.

From what I could gather from his unintelligible ramblings is the fact that he is a heretical Universalist:

"While I'm of the other contrast. I would NOT be surprised If God turned out to be so perfect a hero that he saves everyone."

In the delirious mind of Utilyan the Lake of Fire is but a fantasy and a fiction.

 

[Protestant]

Signs by Which to Identify the Reprobate

Part 2 ​

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient (Romans 1:28).

Has your religious leader, whether male or female, married a person of the same sex?

If yes, then he/she is reprobate.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet (Romans 1:26-27).

Does your religious leader preach the cross of prosperity?

If yes, then he/she is reprobate.

But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows (1 Timothy 6:9-10).

Continued…………….

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I hear a lot of "God can't" 's I hear an angry God.

Psalm 7:11. 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.'

So not only is God angry with sinners, His anger against is not a mere temper tantrum; it is a set, settled and continual thing. Moreover, God is right to be angry; He judges justly. This is what the word of God tells us, Utilyan, so deal with it.

However, the word of God also says, 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son That whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16).

This does not mean 'God loved the world sooooooo much.....,' but 'This is how God loved the world.....' If you want to see the love of God, look to the cross and fall down in wonder. If you look anywhere else you may see traces of God's good creation, but generally you see a fallen world, fallen because of Mankind's sin and under the righteous condemnation of God.

If you think that people ought to be saved in any other way than by Jesus Christ crucified, then you are claiming to be wiser than God. If you are telling people that religious observations and good deeds will save them then you are '.....healing the wound of [God's] people slightly, saying, "Peace, peace!" When there is no peace' (Jeremiah 6:14). You are sending people to hell with a pocket-full of false promises, because, 'salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven [than that of Jesus] given to men by which we must be saved' (Acts 4:12).

John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.......' The Father has given to the Son a vast crowd of people of every race and language (Revelation 7:9), and there is no question but that they will come. '.......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' You can tell anyone one at all that if he will repent of his sins and trust in Christ for salvation (Mark 1:15), he will be saved. Christ will not turn him away. That is the Gospel. It's the only one there is.

 

[utilyan]

Psalm 7:11. 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.'

So not only is God angry with sinners, His anger against is not a mere temper tantrum; it is a set, settled and continual thing. Moreover, God is right to be angry; He judges justly. This is what the word of God tells us, Utilyan, so deal with it.

However, the word of God also says, 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son That whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16).

This does not mean 'God loved the world sooooooo much.....,' but 'This is how God loved the world.....' If you want to see the love of God, look to the cross and fall down in wonder. If you look anywhere else you may see traces of God's good creation, but generally you see a fallen world, fallen because of Mankind's sin and under the righteous condemnation of God.

If you think that people ought to be saved in any other way than by Jesus Christ crucified, then you are claiming to be wiser than God. If you are telling people that religious observations and good deeds will save them then you are '.....healing the wound of [God's] people slightly, saying, "Peace, peace!" When there is no peace' (Jeremiah 6:14). You are sending people to hell with a pocket-full of false promises, because, 'salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven [than that of Jesus] given to men by which we must be saved' (Acts 4:12).

John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.......' The Father has given to the Son a vast crowd of people of every race and language (Revelation 7:9), and there is no question but that they will come. '.......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' You can tell anyone one at all that if he will repent of his sins and trust in Christ for salvation (Mark 1:15), he will be saved. Christ will not turn him away. That is the Gospel. It's the only one there is.

Hebrew language. Angry can mean "annoyed" among other things.

I have to object your belief that God is an idiot. He might show wrath, might appear angry. Actual Anger REQUIRES ignorance.

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan's reply is not only incoherent, it is devoid of Christian truth.

From what I could gather from his unintelligible ramblings is the fact that he is a heretical Universalist:



In the delirious mind of Utilyan the Lake of Fire is but a fantasy and a fiction.

God is a Universalist. But you didn't want it his way.

 

[utilyan]

I'd love for you all to be there at my judgment. The look on his face, when you bring up charges that this man had the audacity even in the face of eternal damnation, He trusts God so much to believe God was such a good thing, a perfect father, the perfect hero, that he actually believed he will save every soul.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hebrew language. Angry can mean "annoyed" among other things.

The Hebrew word is za'am (Strongs 2194). It means to be enraged or indignant. Its root means literally to foam at the mouth. God does not get 'annoyed' or a bit miffed. The word is used in Daniel 11:30 to express the 'fury' of the king of the North. It is also used in Malachi 1:4 concerning the fate of Edom. 'They shall be called the Territory of wickedness, and the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.'

I have to object your belief that God is an idiot. He might show wrath, might appear angry. Actual Anger REQUIRES ignorance.

You are confusing Almighty God with Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. Jeremiah 5:12-13. 'They have lied about the LORD and said, "Not He! Neither will evil come upon us, nor shall we see sword or famine." And the prophets become wind, for the word is not in them. Thus it shall be done to them.'

I

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'd love for you all to be there at my judgment. The look on his face, when you bring up charges that this man had the audacity even in the face of eternal damnation, He trusts God so much to believe God was such a good thing, a perfect father, the perfect hero, that he actually believed he will save every soul.

Your problem is two-fold.. You are totally ignorant of God;, and you do not believe His word.

 

[utilyan]

Your problem is two-fold.. You are totally ignorant of God;, and you do not believe His word.

Doesn't mean much from someone who takes every other verse BACKWARDS in meaning.

Again I'm gonna love the look on faces when you explain your objection of God's perfect capabilities.

 

[Protestant]

God is a Universalist. But you didn't want it his way.

Your avatar claims you are on a MISSION FROM GOD.

In a certain sense, that is true.

Like the Blues brothers, your mission is from the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4).

 

[utilyan]

Your avatar claims you are on a MISSION FROM GOD.

In a certain sense, that is true.

Like the Blues brothers, your mission is from the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4).

If we talk about the Nazis of Christianity everyone knows who we are talking about.

Same principles just repackaged spiritually.

You can bet I'm in the service of the Devil if the only God was Hitler-God.

Seriously a person can think of thousands great characters for God. Good and loving to all. And the best some idiot could come up with is Hitler-God.


John 12

37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49“For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50“I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

 

[Yeshua1]

For God so loved the world……..

The Absolute Decree of Reprobation Expounded

Part 1
Would say that there is not sufficient proof from the scriptures though to assert beyond any doubt that God [redestines the lost under reprobation, in the same way he has those who will get saved!​

O