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The Absolute Decree of Reprobation Expounded
- Thread starter Protestant
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The Church of rome worships God with her mouth, and yet her heart is far from him, as they take the commandments and teachings of mere men and place them on par with god and his word!
What is the gospel, according to Rome, as it is not the same one Jesus and Paul taught us!
Yet my ACCUSERS all run away from a simple question, disregarding the Command of God to do exactly what they accuse me of.
My question is this:
When a man sins is he doing what God wanted and desired him to do? Yes or No.
If you are a Christian you can easily answer my question with Joy even.
Why do some avoid this question?
John 3
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
"My question is this:
When a man sins is he doing what God wanted and desired him to do? Yes or No."
My repeated answer, for the umpteenth time is this:
Capeesh?
When a man sins is he doing what God wanted and desired him to do? Yes or No."
My repeated answer, for the umpteenth time is this:
Capeesh?
"My question is this:
When a man sins is he doing what God wanted and desired him to do? Yes or No."
My repeated answer, for the umpteenth time is this:
Capeesh?
Its a yes or no question. Satan would not want to answer this either because he would rather have the distortion of what the command of God means.
When a man sins is he doing what God wanted and desired him to do? Yes or No.
Jesus Christ is Lord. Only the truth will set you free.
Any Christian can answer this easily. One who follows the devil cannot he must distort the command of God.
See we deny worshipping any other but Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is LORD.
But when I present the command of God, you will not say amen to it. Instead you are against the command of God.
John 14
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
You should repent and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Rather then avoid the command of God.
I can praise Jesus Christ 24/7 and you can't even say amen to his command.
The answer is no. The Calvinists on this forum are wrong. But so are all the perversions of Roman Catholicism.
That is the correct answer.
A Calvinist however is stuck. He cannot say "no".
Because if it is admitted that the command of God establishes his obvious want and desire then God's desire of all men not to sin, God's desire for all men to Love God and Love neighbor.
God's desire and want for all men not to sin pointing to a desire for all to be saved.
God's love of all people.
"But so are all the perversions of Roman Catholicism."
I agree 100%
We just call them protestants though.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Put on your thinking cap.
Re-read the OP.
Now please explain how God's love and desire for the salvation of all mankind is evidenced when He purposefully kept the Gospel hidden from the Gentiles for centuries of generations?
Remember the basics:
No Gospel = no Faith
No Faith = no Salvation
No Gospel = no Salvation
No Salvation = no Love
No Love = Damnation
And what about Rahab? Or Ruth? And what about all those who loved before Israel was ever a nation?
Men have been calling in the name of the Lord since Genesis.
Except that the Bible refutes the basic tenets of Roman Catholicism.That is the correct answer.
A Calvinist however is stuck. He cannot say "no".
Because if it is admitted that the command of God establishes his obvious want and desire then God's desire of all men not to sin, God's desire for all men to Love God and Love neighbor.
God's desire and want for all men not to sin pointing to a desire for all to be saved.
God's love of all people.
"But so are all the perversions of Roman Catholicism."
I agree 100%
We just call them protestants though.
Romans chapter 4 and 5 refute sacramental salvation.
A Rose by any other name is still a Rose. You have a problem with the word "sacrament".
The Sacraments ARE salvation.
Romans 4 and 5 does a practice of confirmation.
Romans 4 and 5 has forgiveness Reconciliation in action
Jordan you are saying you can be saved WITHOUT forgiveness from God, WITHOUT God sending the holy spirit.
If you are in a burning building, you are about to die, you are alone, you pray to God for forgiveness. Right there the sacrament of Reconciliation takes place.
Every act of God is SACRED. God gifts us Sacraments
I'm sorry that word is too big for you.
Every act of God is HOLY. God gifts us little hollies......
Call it whatever you want.
God's gifts like forgiveness and baptism.....are Sacred.....thus sacraments. They are not things we do they are things he does.
You might not agree with the full formal reverent expression, like confessing your sins to the church, a pastor.
The solution is not throw away the baby with the bathwater.
If you want to start a catholic debate, please make another thread.
Nothing you said NEGATES the DESIRE and WANT of God expressed by commandment.
The answer is right here:
Romans 11
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
You were given the GOSPEL because someone else's unbelief and disobedience.
They who have not received the gospel = No Gospel.
Receive mercy through your mercy.
"that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."
You started off worthless, God had his chosen. His chosen disobeyed, he picked you to take his place.
God to save YOU allowed them to fall.
"they are enemies for your sakes"
But here is the TURN AROUND. " they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
Those CHOSEN who are evil FOR YOUR SAKE, enemies of the gospel, are still God's beloved.
You obtained mercy through their unbelief.
NOW they can obtain mercy through YOUR MERCY.
"through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."
That's why being elect I can say Lord have mercy on my friend Protestant and Jordan. If I am in the right I got dibbs in calling out what the meaning of mercy to me means.
Protestant, If I heard something bad happened to you, I would be sad.
It would be mercy TO ME if nothing bad happens to YOU. Its because I do love and care for all, it is my hope through the mercy Jesus shows me the scripture is fulfilled:
"through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."
Of course that includes preaching the gospel and receiving the "basics".
Romans 4 and 5 refutes the idea of salvation through religious rituals/good works including baptism, confirmation, prayers to Mary, The Rosary, Confession of sins to a priest, last rites, the "Eucharist" and other Catholic "sacraments".A Rose by any other name is still a Rose. You have a problem with the word "sacrament".
The Sacraments ARE salvation.
Romans 4 and 5 does a practice of confirmation.
Romans 4 and 5 has forgiveness Reconciliation in action
Jordan you are saying you can be saved WITHOUT forgiveness from God, WITHOUT God sending the holy spirit.
If you are in a burning building, you are about to die, you are alone, you pray to God for forgiveness. Right there the sacrament of Reconciliation takes place.
Every act of God is SACRED. God gifts us Sacraments
I'm sorry that word is too big for you.
Every act of God is HOLY. God gifts us little hollies......
Call it whatever you want.
God's gifts like forgiveness and baptism.....are Sacred.....thus sacraments. They are not things we do they are things he does.
You might not agree with the full formal reverent expression, like confessing your sins to the church, a pastor.
The solution is not throw away the baby with the bathwater.
If you want to start a catholic debate, please make another thread.
Jordan start a thread about Catholicism and shoot a link here.
We are not believers of Salvation through Good works.
Salvation is also not our priority.
We don't weigh the command of God and ask....well did he say is he going to give me 5$ or salvation if I do this?
We do the command of God for free. If you are always selfish minded thinking about me, me, me, this going to go over your head.
We are in a different league, brother. You worried about your own life and afterlife, We offered both to God, Understand? we are past ourselves, we have ruled ourselves out of the equation, We trust in Jesus Christ, You can tell me the command and Good works of Jesus Christ will send me straight to hell........And we will do it with a glad heart.
Do you understand this brother? Do you know what loyalty, dedication and sacrifice is?
I don't wake up and think to myself well I wonder if God is going to kill me or hate me today, I wonder if I'm on my way to heaven or hell today.......
Maybe back in my playground days when I didn't know God.
When your kids ask for a glass of water I expect they don't do it with arms covering their heads expecting to be slapped. Don't treat God this way.
Our Father, loves us. Loves you.
Everything Jesus did was a perfect act of religion. Jesus Christ is High Priest so it doesn't matter by what method you are still giving a confession to a priest.
You have a problem with Traditional Rituals that put an extra reverence and respect to those gifts, say that then. But you can't say you are saved without God's forgiveness.
Sometimes a thumbs up to God is not enough, Sometimes our gratitude to God overflows even our acts of repentance.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
The few exceptions do not make the rule.
Noah found sovereign grace, as did 7 other humans. Billions of others were destroyed, most of whom never heard the preaching of Noah.
Please cite OT Scriptures which prove the Gospel went out into all the world by preachers sent from God.
The entire point of the book of Acts and the NT Epistles is to describe how the command to go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature was first carried out.
Until that time the Gospel was purposely hidden from the Gentiles:
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:24-27 ESV).
My view is somewhat different than those expressed on this thread. I don't believe God needs to decree reprobation at all. I believe election is based upon mercy (Rom. 9:16,18, 22-24) and "mercy" demands that a just sentence of condemnation has already been passed or else "mercy" has no meaning at all.
Therefore, God did not need to decree reprobation because all mankind without exception were condemned in the fall and justly deserved eternal damnation. Election is based upon "mercy" and therefore election is not of a yet unfallen number of mankind, but is God's merciful act toward a specific number of mankind perceived as already fallen and justly condemned.
That is right, I am not a superlapsarian. I believe the logical order of decrees is seen in the order found revealed in scripture. God decreed the fall of all mankind in connection with accountability to the proper use of free will. All mankind without exception were justly condemned and therefore the elect were equally "children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS."
Therefore, since all mankind without exception were justly condemned, God by unconditional election chose a great number of JUSTLY CONDEMNED persons to be saved based wholly upon mercy as any election based upon justice would result in no election of any fallen man at all.
Hence, God did not need to decree reprobation since all were justly condemned already. He was free to condemn the whole human race to hell JUSTLY. Only "mercy" could be the basis to elect any of them to salvation. Those non-elect can't complain because they get precisely what they deserved and won't complain because they are at "enmity toward God." The elect can't boast because they too were "children of wrath even as others" and therefore were "children of disobedience" with the same "enmity" and nothing accounts for their election to salvation but God's purpose of election according to grace and mercy.
Therefore, God did not need to decree reprobation because all mankind without exception were condemned in the fall and justly deserved eternal damnation. Election is based upon "mercy" and therefore election is not of a yet unfallen number of mankind, but is God's merciful act toward a specific number of mankind perceived as already fallen and justly condemned.
That is right, I am not a superlapsarian. I believe the logical order of decrees is seen in the order found revealed in scripture. God decreed the fall of all mankind in connection with accountability to the proper use of free will. All mankind without exception were justly condemned and therefore the elect were equally "children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS."
Therefore, since all mankind without exception were justly condemned, God by unconditional election chose a great number of JUSTLY CONDEMNED persons to be saved based wholly upon mercy as any election based upon justice would result in no election of any fallen man at all.
Hence, God did not need to decree reprobation since all were justly condemned already. He was free to condemn the whole human race to hell JUSTLY. Only "mercy" could be the basis to elect any of them to salvation. Those non-elect can't complain because they get precisely what they deserved and won't complain because they are at "enmity toward God." The elect can't boast because they too were "children of wrath even as others" and therefore were "children of disobedience" with the same "enmity" and nothing accounts for their election to salvation but God's purpose of election according to grace and mercy.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
No disagreement, re: all are viewed as condemned.
The point I have been making in my posts has to do with God’s eternal purpose to reject most sinful men for no specific cause outside of Himself.
Those whom God wills to save, He elects.
Those whom God wills not to save, He reprobates.
Neither choice is the result of rashness, recklessness or impetuosity.
Rather, each is the result of decisions formed in the eternal mind of Him who is infinitely wise, holy and good.
By using Jacob and Esau as our models, we cannot say God rejected Esau due to specific sin.
God’s rejection of Esau occurred before Esau had done evil.
If original sin was the cause of rejection, then Jacob should have also been rejected, for he, too, was born of sinful parents.
Thus, the cause of Esau’s rejection was according to God’s will of good pleasure, as was God’s choice of Jacob.
The decree to reject Esau, called Reprobation, included the negative decree to not have mercy upon him.
The consequence of passing by the non-Elect always results in their willful and non-coerced disobedience.
This then results in their hardening, according to the sovereign will of God’s good pleasure.
Romans 9:18 places Election (mercy) and Reprobation (hardening) in the same eternal will of God’s good pleasure, contingent on no cause outside of Himself.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Ephesians 1: 11 reiterates the truth that all things which come to pass are according to the eternal counsel of His own will.
That which is the eternal counsel of God’s will of purpose is called His Decree.
His decrees encompass all things, including how many hairs will be on my head at any given time; to what extent I will sin; as well as who will be born, rejected, hardened and damned.
The latter is called the absolute decree of Reprobation.
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I would take it further to say a persons inability includes not being able to exist for one second without God. A heart beat is a good thing we have no idea how its done it is totally by God's grace.
You can't say God hardens a heart which by nature was completely hard anyways.
You can't FALL at the bottom.
God can declare he can STEAL from who he wants, that doesn't imply he steals.
God can declare he can show mercy on who he wants and none on who he wants, That doesn't imply he has shown mercy or none at all.
That only states his freedom and extent of possibilities.
But his COMMAND states his WANT and DESIRE without question.
When a man sins is he doing what God wanted and desired him to do? Yes or No.
The only way a man can even choose to go to hell is by directly doing what GOD did not want and desire of him.
If a man only does what God wanted him to do, to be damned, That's fine to declare him damned, But you have no grounds to call him a sinner.
A sinner has to do what GOD does not want him to DO. That's why it is called a SIN.
You can't say God hardens a heart which by nature was completely hard anyways.
You can't FALL at the bottom.
God can declare he can STEAL from who he wants, that doesn't imply he steals.
God can declare he can show mercy on who he wants and none on who he wants, That doesn't imply he has shown mercy or none at all.
That only states his freedom and extent of possibilities.
But his COMMAND states his WANT and DESIRE without question.
When a man sins is he doing what God wanted and desired him to do? Yes or No.
The only way a man can even choose to go to hell is by directly doing what GOD did not want and desire of him.
If a man only does what God wanted him to do, to be damned, That's fine to declare him damned, But you have no grounds to call him a sinner.
A sinner has to do what GOD does not want him to DO. That's why it is called a SIN.
A Rose by any other name is still a Rose. You have a problem with the word "sacrament".
The Sacraments ARE salvation.
Romans 4 and 5 does a practice of confirmation.
Romans 4 and 5 has forgiveness Reconciliation in action
Jordan you are saying you can be saved WITHOUT forgiveness from God, WITHOUT God sending the holy spirit.
If you are in a burning building, you are about to die, you are alone, you pray to God for forgiveness. Right there the sacrament of Reconciliation takes place.
Every act of God is SACRED. God gifts us Sacraments
I'm sorry that word is too big for you.
Every act of God is HOLY. God gifts us little hollies......
Call it whatever you want.
God's gifts like forgiveness and baptism.....are Sacred.....thus sacraments. They are not things we do they are things he does.
You might not agree with the full formal reverent expression, like confessing your sins to the church, a pastor.
The solution is not throw away the baby with the bathwater.
If you want to start a catholic debate, please make another thread.
Why any need for sacraments though, in order to have a sinner get saved? Jesus/paul/peter/John et all ALL stated that whoever receives Jesus as Lord by and thru faith ALONE are saved, and that is the moment you velieve unto Him, and at that moment the Holy Spirit indwells you...
We are made complete in jesus, having ALL spiritual promises and blessings RIGHT NOW, not doled out to us in portions by Sacraments!
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