The Absolute Sovereignty of God? Where did this doctrine come from?

[Dave G]

God has many attributes and they interact with each other and thus affect each other making it impossible for God to be absolutely sovereign.

Yet He is, and sits over the circle of the earth, and owns the cattle on a thousand hills...
And tells us in no uncertain terms:

" and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).


Please keep reading, my friend.
God's word is a very large book, and He has a lot to say about many things.
Some things that He says can take a while to sink in...
As they did for me.

May God bless you.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Paul preached this same Lord to the churches in his epistles.

Prior to the decease of Paul and the rest of the apostles, it was the Gospel.

The Tanakh, known to us as the first 5 books of the Bible, makes mention of it briefly...
When the Lord told Moses:

" ... I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )

Which is the same as He told Paul to write to the Romans in Romans 9.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Paul preached this same Lord to the churches in his epistles.

Prior to the decease of Paul and the rest of the apostles, it was the Gospel.

The Tanakh, known to us as the first 5 books of the Bible, makes mention of it briefly...
When the Lord told Moses:

" ... I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )

Which is the same as He told Paul to write to the Romans in Romans 9.

Are you confusing the doctrine of the sovereignty of God with the doctrine of the absolute sovereignty of God like you are confusing the Tanakh with the Torah? The Tanakh is the Hebrew Bible consisting of the Torah (the five books of Moses, the Nevi'im (the Books of the Prophets), and the Ketuvim (the “Writings” – the poetical books, the Megillot, or Scrolls (Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations of Jeremiah, Ecclesiastes, and Esther), prophecy (Daniel), and history (Ezra, Nehemiah, and I and II Chronicles).

Paul was Jewish to the core. Hence, he most definitely did not believe in the doctrine of the absolute sovereignty of God. However, very careless reading of his writings has resulted in his being seriously misunderstood.

I have here in my study 276 commentaries on Romans (including many multivolume works and every exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Romans that has ever been published in English by a publishing house or a University), and numerous other works about the Book of Romans. Therefore, I have a fairly good idea of what Paul wrote to the church in Rome. But again, some careless readers seriously misunderstand the Book of Romans.

 

[Dave G]

Are you confusing the doctrine of the sovereignty of God with the doctrine of the absolute sovereignty of God like you are confusing the Tanakh with the Torah?

I suppose that would depend on what is meant by the "Absolute Sovereignty of God".

If that means that He chooses to save someone apart from any action required of them, and to keep them by His own power through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time, then I'm not confusing anything...as the Scriptures tell us this.
If that means that the Lord has ordained all that comes to pass either passively (by allowing the choices of men and fallen angels to be carried out ) or actively ( by putting it in men's hearts to accomplish that will ), then that is what I see His word saying.


For the record, whether or not I know the difference between the Torah and the Tanakh is not relevant to me, as the entire Bible ( Old Testament and New ), is all the word of God and I feel that it should not be divided up into "relevant sections".

 

[Dave G]

Paul was Jewish to the core. Hence, he most definitely did not believe in the doctrine of the absolute sovereignty of God.

Sure he did, as the Jews had access to the entire Old Testament writings from Genesis through Malachi by the time of his birth. and his sitting under the teachings of the Pharisees.
Those same Scriptures record what the Lord gave the prophets to speak, including all that He gave David to say, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc.

They speak of God's power and might, in great detail, in many, many places.

However, very careless reading of his writings has resulted in his being seriously misunderstood.

Speaking only for myself,
I've read it very, very carefully for some 22 years now... Genesis to Revelation.

I see nothing that contradicts "TULIP" anywhere, unless one isolates specific statements made by the Lord and uses them to speak to everything that He has said about a given subject.
I believe it's called, "proof-texting", where one builds an entire teaching of God on one "verse".

For example, many believe that God loves the entire world ( each and every man, woman and child ), when that is not what the Psalms tell us.
John 3:16 is not everything that He has to say on that given subject.

 

[Dave G]

I have here in my study 276 commentaries on Romans (including many multivolume works and every exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Romans that has ever been published in English by a publishing house or a University), and numerous other works about the Book of Romans.

I'm sorry, but I don't put any stock in commentaries ( whether "Arminian" or "Calvinistic" ) since, to me, they don't have any "spiritual weight"...
They are written by men apart from the inspiration of God and consist of opinions, which all men have...
Myself included.

Since the Lord is my Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27, Hebrews 8:7-13, Jeremiah 31, John 6, etc ), all I have to do as one of God's children is to pick up the Bible and avail myself of what the Lord had Paul write to Timothy:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

..as well as this:

" But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ( 2 Timothy 3:10-17 ).

Paul's doctrine, which he received by inspiration, was everything that he wrote to the churches.
This includes election, predestination, calling, justification, why God's people are to exercise themselves unto godliness, and many other subjects;
Including the fact that the Lord has absolute sovereignty over the actions and will of His creations.

Whether or not He chooses to exercise that sovereignty, is ( and always has been ) a matter of His discretion.

 

[Dave G]

Therefore, I have a fairly good idea of what Paul wrote to the church in Rome. But again, some careless readers seriously misunderstand the Book of Romans.

I just read it and believe what it says, with no help from commentaries or the institutions of men.
In fact, I have a very clear picture of all that Paul wrote to the Romans, from chapter 1 all the way through to the end.

Especially regarding what many call "difficult passages" such as Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11.

I praise the Lord for His unspeakable grace and mercy towards me, and for opening my understanding that I might understand the Scriptures ( Luke 24:45 ) as He did for others of His people.


But again, believers are dull of hearing, and the reason that we are to dig into and study the Scriptures over and over, is because it takes time for His words to sink in and to change our way of thinking.
That's why I encourage all who profess Christ to do the same.

 

[Silverhair]

Saving faith is the very gift of God

You keep saying that but the bible does not agree with you.

We are saved because we believe/have faith in the risen Son.

But lets say you are correct then why, since God wants all to come to faith, does He not give that faith to all people?

Two options
1] God really does not want all to come to repentance
or
2] you have your facts wrong.

 

[cjab]

Saving faith is the very gift of God

It's not what Eph 2:8 exactly says, as "οὗτος = this" in "this not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God" is nominative neuter, whereas "faith=πίστις" in "through faith" is genitive feminine.

Moreover οὗτος refers to the leading subject, not the nearest antecedent, where there is more than one antecedent. οὗτος therefore must refer to God's salvation by grace.

 

[Van]

Definition of "Absolute Sovereignty:" God orders everything, controls everything, rules over everything.

In other words God causes, predestines, controls everything that happens, nothing happens by chance or the autonomous decision of humans.

On the other side of the debate are those that believe God's Sovereignty is defined as God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

Numerous verses in scripture say things happen by chance, so those advocating "Absolute Sovereignty" are biblically illiterate.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I'm sorry, but I don't put any stock in commentaries ( whether "Arminian" or "Calvinistic" ) since, to me, they don't have any "spiritual weight"...
They are written by men apart from the inspiration of God and consist of opinions, which all men have...
Myself included.

Since the Lord is my Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27, Hebrews 8:7-13, Jeremiah 31, John 6, etc ), all I have to do as one of God's children is to pick up the Bible and avail myself of what the Lord had Paul write to Timothy:

A Baptist once wrote,

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”

Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

[Silverhair]

Definition of "Absolute Sovereignty:" God orders everything, controls everything, rules over everything.

In other words God causes, predestines, controls everything that happens, nothing happens by chance or the autonomous decision of humans.

On the other side of the debate are those that believe God's Sovereignty is defined as God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

Numerous verses in scripture say things happen by chance, so those advocating "Absolute Sovereignty" are biblically illiterate.

I have wondered if those that claim God has to be "absolutely sovereign" think that those that do not make that claim think God is less than sovereign?

 

[Dave G]

A Baptist once wrote,

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”

Charles Haddon Spurgeon

In the above, I'm seeing that, despite Charles Haddon Spurgeon ascribing to the so-called "doctrines of grace", he didn't truly understand or even believe what God's word says about the Spirit being the believer's Teacher;
Since, by what you've shown me, he thought that a saved person "inherits" their understanding of the Scriptures from other men.

To put it differently, I've observed that most of those who have filled pulpits over the years seem to think that God uses men, similar to what we see in secular institutions like universities, to teach others the correct understanding of His word.

The problem with this idea, Craig, is that this places a mere man ( or group of men ) between the believer and the correct understanding of their Saviour's words.
It can and does "hold them hostage"... and unless they are "fortunate", they will forever continue to be at the mercy of said system;
A system that holds the "correct interpretation" of the Bible over that believer's head for their entire lives.
Sound familiar?
I can name at least one institution that has existed for over 15 centuries, that does that to this day.

The fact is, no two denominations seem to be able to reach consensus on everything,
Which means that under this "system" of God supposedly using elders to pass down the correct understanding of the Bible to younger believers, there is no guaranteed way for all of those who profess Christ to be united in both doctrine and practice.

Again, the Bible says differently than what Spurgeon himself believed.
God's people have never been at the mercy of such a man-made and inherently flawed system, and they never will be.
God Himself promises to be their teacher, and He is pleased to confound the efforts of mere men to deny His people from correctly understanding His words.


That said, it appears that we are in disagreement on a great many things;
And since we are in disagreement, can two walk together unless they are agreed?
No, I'm sorry to say.


Goodbye sir, and I wish you well.

 

[Silverhair]

In the above, I'm seeing that, despite Charles Haddon Spurgeon ascribing to the so-called "doctrines of grace", he didn't truly understand or even believe what God's word says about the Spirit being the believer's Teacher;
Since, by what you've shown me, he thought that a saved person "inherits" their understanding of the Scriptures from other men.

To put it differently, I've observed that most of those who have filled pulpits over the years seem to think that God uses men, similar to what we see in secular institutions like universities, to teach others the correct understanding of His word.

The problem with this idea, Craig, is that this places a mere man ( or group of men ) between the believer and the correct understanding of their Saviour's words.
It can and does "hold them hostage"... and unless they are "fortunate", they will forever continue to be at the mercy of said system;
A system that holds the "correct interpretation" of the Bible over that believer's head for their entire lives.
Sound familiar?
I can name at least one institution that has existed for over 15 centuries, that does that to this day.

The fact is, no two denominations seem to be able to reach consensus on everything,
Which means that under this "system" of God supposedly using elders to pass down the correct understanding of the Bible to younger believers, there is no guaranteed way for all of those who profess Christ to be united in both doctrine and practice.

Again, the Bible says differently than what Spurgeon himself believed.
God's people have never been at the mercy of such a man-made and inherently flawed system, and they never will be.
God Himself promises to be their teacher, and He is pleased to confound the efforts of mere men to deny His people from correctly understanding His words.


That said, it appears that we are in disagreement on a great many things;
And since we are in disagreement, can two walk together unless they are agreed?
No, I'm sorry to say.


Goodbye sir, and I wish you well.

Do you think that you have the correct understanding of God's word @Dave G?

I ask because since not everyone agrees and as you say there can only be one correct understanding so you must think that everyone else is wrong. It is either that or you have to admit that your understanding is wrong.