The Absolute Sovereignty of God? Where did this doctrine come from?

[Dave G]

" When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. " ( Matthew 16:13-17 ).

Once again, a pre-detemined outcome.

God the Father was the one who actively revealed to Peter and the other disciples who Jesus really was, not men.
No "chance" was involved, as the Lord Jesus point-blank told Peter why he knew that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.


As always, Scripture tells us in no uncertain terms Who is, was, and always will be responsible for certain outcomes...
God, not men and definitely not "chance" or "luck".

When the Lord decides to do something, no man can stand against the outcome.
When He permits man's efforts to result in an outcome, He can and will step in and alter that outcome as He sees fit;
Or, He can and will let it take its course, knowing full well what can and will happen if He doesn't step in and alter the outcome.

That is "absolute sovereignty".

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair,
I'm only going to answer you once on this subject, because as I've found in past interactions and in presenting His words to you, further discussion would probably result in neither one of us agreeing .
I have seen nothing so far that looks to me as if this pattern is changing, I'm sad to say, even though I hope that it will.

But to answer your question, yes, I do hear and understand my Saviour's words;
Keeping firmly in mind that the only reason that I do understand them properly, is because the Lord, through His Spirit, has promised to teach His children for Himself.
I listed some of those same passages where those promises are found, in post # 26 above.

God's people acknowledge that He blinds some and reveals Himself to others ( Matthew 11:25-27, Matthew 13::11, Romans 11:7-9, etc ), and that the reason that they hear and believe His words, is because the Lord, in His grace and mercy, has given them the privilege to do so.
Otherwise they would be blind, and unable ( and most of all unwilling ) to believe His every word.

My sincere hope is that God, in His mercy, has done this through the Spirit and for you as well... and that in time and with much study, you will begin to see the same truths that I have;


Especially with regard to His absolute soveriegnty over all things.

So you just answered my question. You are under the false impression that you have all the truth and those that do not agree with your view must be wrong.

It is truly sad to see someone so consumed by their own false views as you are.

The reason that we do not agree is because some of the views that you have presented are not biblical even though I am sure you will disagree with my assessment of those views.

 

[Van]

" Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region." ( Acts 13:46-49 ).

Here in the above, an event occurred with a pre-determined outcome...
Some of the Gentiles believed, but it was only as many as were ordained to eternal life, that did.


" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts 2:46-47 )

Again, a pre-determined outcome...
The Lord added to the church at Jerusalem daily, such as should be saved.

Not what is said, the outcome was uncertain, perhaps wheat, perhaps something else. You can deny scripture till the cows come home, or strive to change the subject and bring up an endless list of non-germane verses. I have seen it all before.

For example Acts 2:47 does not say "such as should be saved." The verb is present tense, and "should be" "were being saved."

Here is the NKJV:
Act 2:47
praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

 

[Silverhair]

Not everyone.
There is a remnant according to the election of grace even to this day, who hear, understand and believe His words.

Respectfully, it seems to me that you're appealing to man-made "logic" here, instead of the fact that God teaches His children through the Spirit and through His word;
That God gives them the Holy Spirit, so that they may know the things that are freely given to them of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 )...
Which things Paul spoke of.

My friend, just as I have urged Craig, I now do to you...

Avail yourself of the Scriptures and ignore the commentaries.
Institutions of men and their differing "interpretations" cannot ever take the place of something that God alone has promised to do for His people and through the power of His Spirit.


May God bless you.

So since you do not think you need anything but God to teach you then I would have to conclude that you do not have a bible as that is what men have written. Granted they are men led by the Holy Spirit but still just men. Plus the view that you have expressed would lead me to think you have listened to some men who have taught you the view you espouse.

Did Paul expound on the teachings of the OT, did Christ not do the same? Did Paul not tell Timothy to preach and exhort people to trust in the Lord? By your words you must even discount the various letters that the apostles wrote.

Do you really think that you have sufficient knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and the cultures of 2000+ years ago that you would not gain a better understanding of the word of God from various commentaries?

It is unfortunate that you have chosen to close yourself off from various sources of information that could help you grow but as I have seen before you think that is the best route for you.

 

[Silverhair]

" When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. " ( Matthew 16:13-17 ).

Once again, a pre-detemined outcome.

God the Father was the one who actively revealed to Peter and the other disciples who Jesus really was, not men.
No "chance" was involved, as the Lord Jesus point-blank told Peter why he knew that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.


As always, Scripture tells us in no uncertain terms Who is, was, and always will be responsible for certain outcomes...
God, not men and definitely not "chance" or "luck".

When the Lord decides to do something, no man can stand against the outcome.
When He permits man's efforts to result in an outcome, He can and will step in and alter that outcome as He sees fit;
Or, He can and will let it take its course, knowing full well what can and will happen if He doesn't step in and alter the outcome.

That is "absolute sovereignty".

You hear in theological circles, especially from Calvinists, that “God is Absolutely Sovereign.” They say this so often that a person would think it was a scripture – it is not.

In Calvinism, the idea of “Absolute Sovereignty” is that God planned, orchestrated, and causes absolutely everything that happens. That God prefers sin over holiness in every instance that sin occurs, because He could have decreed holiness instead of sin but chose sin instead.

That is the "absolute sovereignty" that we see in calvinism.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Saving faith is the very gift of God

Yes

But you still have to act on it

Failure to repent (respond to the work of God in your life) will be a failure to be saved

For it is By Grace (the work of God) we have been saved through faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I suppose that would depend on what is meant by the "Absolute Sovereignty of God".

If that means that He chooses to save someone apart from any action required of them,

action like in faith calling out to him? God saves us without this?

Where is this in scripture?

and to keep them by His own power through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time,

Yes. we agree here

then I'm not confusing anything...as the Scriptures tell us this.
If that means that the Lord has ordained all that comes to pass either passively (by allowing the choices of men and fallen angels to be carried out ) or actively ( by putting it in men's hearts to accomplish that will ), then that is what I see His word saying.

But if God over rules any mans choice, then God forces that person. He did not even force Jonah, Now he did direct his path. and Jonah finally caved. But Jonah was not forced.

For the record, whether or not I know the difference between the Torah and the Tanakh is not relevant to me, as the entire Bible ( Old Testament and New ), is all the word of God and I feel that it should not be divided up into "relevant sections".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sure he did, as the Jews had access to the entire Old Testament writings from Genesis through Malachi by the time of his birth. and his sitting under the teachings of the Pharisees.
Those same Scriptures record what the Lord gave the prophets to speak, including all that He gave David to say, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc.

They speak of God's power and might, in great detail, in many, many places.

Speaking only for myself,
I've read it very, very carefully for some 22 years now... Genesis to Revelation.

I see nothing that contradicts "TULIP" anywhere, unless one isolates specific statements made by the Lord and uses them to speak to everything that He has said about a given subject.
I believe it's called, "proof-texting", where one builds an entire teaching of God on one "verse".

For example, many believe that God loves the entire world ( each and every man, woman and child ), when that is not what the Psalms tell us.
John 3:16 is not everything that He has to say on that given subject.

Ouch.

Then again, The pharisees not only read the OT multiple times. they could quote it verbatim. and could not see Jesus was the one sent to save them

so it make sense.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm sorry, but I don't put any stock in commentaries ( whether "Arminian" or "Calvinistic" ) since, to me, they don't have any "spiritual weight"...
They are written by men apart from the inspiration of God and consist of opinions, which all men have...
Myself included.

Since the Lord is my Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27, Hebrews 8:7-13, Jeremiah 31, John 6, etc ), all I have to do as one of God's children is to pick up the Bible and avail myself of what the Lord had Paul write to Timothy:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

..as well as this:

" But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ( 2 Timothy 3:10-17 ).

Paul's doctrine, which he received by inspiration, was everything that he wrote to the churches.
This includes election, predestination, calling, justification, why God's people are to exercise themselves unto godliness, and many other subjects;
Including the fact that the Lord has absolute sovereignty over the actions and will of His creations.

Whether or not He chooses to exercise that sovereignty, is ( and always has been ) a matter of His discretion.

while all of this is true. sadly there are many interpretation of what these terms mean.

So not just knowing them is not enough.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I just read it and believe what it says, with no help from commentaries or the institutions of men.
In fact, I have a very clear picture of all that Paul wrote to the Romans, from chapter 1 all the way through to the end.

Especially regarding what many call "difficult passages" such as Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11.

I praise the Lord for His unspeakable grace and mercy towards me, and for opening my understanding that I might understand the Scriptures ( Luke 24:45 ) as He did for others of His people.


But again, believers are dull of hearing, and the reason that we are to dig into and study the Scriptures over and over, is because it takes time for His words to sink in and to change our way of thinking.
That's why I encourage all who profess Christ to do the same.

so you understand clearly romans 9 - 11 is Paul addressing the Israel question that was prevalent in Rome. And not the fatalistic view calvinists wish to push on it?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You keep saying that but the bible does not agree with you.

We are saved because we believe/have faith in the risen Son.

But lets say you are correct then why, since God wants all to come to faith, does He not give that faith to all people?

Two options
1] God really does not want all to come to repentance
or
2] you have your facts wrong.

Actually it is the gift. Apart from the work of God. we would have nothing to trust in. And remember, Jesus own words. This is the work of God. that you believe

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not everyone.
There is a remnant according to the election of grace even to this day, who hear, understand and believe His words.

These words are concerning the nation of Israel. Not all people.

Respectfully, it seems to me that you're appealing to man-made "logic" here, instead of the fact that God teaches His children through the Spirit and through His word;
That God gives them the Holy Spirit, so that they may know the things that are freely given to them of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 )...
Which things Paul spoke of.

My friend, just as I have urged Craig, I now do to you...

Avail yourself of the Scriptures and ignore the commentaries.
Institutions of men and their differing "interpretations" cannot ever take the place of something that God alone has promised to do for His people and through the power of His Spirit.


May God bless you.

You appear top need to search outside of yourself. in any case

 

[Van]

Definition of "Absolute Sovereignty:" God orders everything, controls everything, rules over everything.

In other words God causes, predestines, controls everything that happens, nothing happens by chance or the autonomous decision of humans.

On the other side of the debate are those that believe God's Sovereignty is defined as God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Numerous verses in scripture say things happen by chance, so those advocating "Absolute Sovereignty" are biblically illiterate.

Luke 10:31:
KJV - " And by chance"
ESV - " Now by chance "
CSB - "happened to be going

 

[Van]

Does the NT speak of possibilities, of things that may happen or might happen.

1 Corinthians 9:22 Interpretive Translation
To the weak I became weak, that I MIGHT win the weak; I have become all sorts of things to all sorts of people, so that I MAY by all means SAVE some.

The Greek words underlying the above words in "All Caps" are in the subjunctive mood, indicating a possibility rather than something predestined one way or the other.

 

[JesusFan]

Does the NT speak of possibilities, of things that may happen or might happen.

1 Corinthians 9:22 Interpretive Translation
To the weak I became weak, that I MIGHT win the weak; I have become all sorts of things to all sorts of people, so that I MAY by all means SAVE some.

The Greek words underlying the above words in "All Caps" are in the subjunctive mood, indicating a possibility rather than something predestined one way or the other.

No such thing as luck or change for God is sovereign over all of His creation

 

[JesusFan]

It's not what Eph 2:8 exactly says, as "οὗτος = this" in "this not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God" is nominative neuter, whereas "faith=πίστις" in "through faith" is genitive feminine.

Moreover οὗτος refers to the leading subject, not the nearest antecedent, where there is more than one antecedent. οὗτος therefore must refer to God's salvation by grace.

Actually refers to the entire "salvation package" from God to us being his grace towards we who got saved

 

[Van]

No such thing as luck or change for God is sovereign over all of His creation

Yet another "taint so" post ignoring verse after verse presented to prove God allows things to happen by chance.