The act of receiving

[npetreley]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi Npetrely;A quote from you;
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First, let's eliminate the possibility that "received" by itself tells you anything about will.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
My Reply;
We know you would rather get rid of the word all together.

Not at all. What I would like is for Arminians to stop pointing to the word received as if it is proof of free will, since it is nothing of the kind.

Originally posted by romanbear:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A quote from you;
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several ways to receive things.
------------------------------------------------------------------
My reply;
The only way to receive eternal life is through Jesus Christ.

I said "things", and pointed to a process, but you said "Jesus Christ" and leaped over to salvation. There's no connection, but that's fine with me! After all, how can anyone here disagree with that statement? He is the way, the truth and the life. No exceptions.

Ironically, it is the free will advocate who wants to create the exception. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life ONLY AFTER we have contributed our decision to the way. If that is true, then Jesus really isn't THE way. He's only XX% of the way (the fraction depending on how much you want to attribute to your free will decision).

To deal with this obvious flaw, Arminians say that the free-will decision is technically 0% of salavation. Man does all the deciding, but Jesus does all the saving. So Arminians on the one hand assert that the ONLY thing that determines why one person is saved and another lost is the difference in their free will decision -- yet this singular pivotal factor accounts for 0% of the way! If people didn't actually take such nonsense seriously it would be hilarious!

Well, I say let the Arminians have their "way" on at least that part of the assertion: Free will really is 0% of the way. In other words, it doesn't exist.

Originally posted by romanbear:
He doesn't force anything on us.
Your explanation of received is definitely just your logic not real or true to God's word
Romanbear

I'm amazed at how quickly you jump from a scriptural statement (The only way to receive eternal life is through Jesus Christ.) to a bold assertion that has no origin in the Bible at all (He doesn't force anything on us). And then you attempt to give your assertion force simply by saying "your logic isn't true to God's word" without actually presenting any of God's word to demonstrate where it is flawed.

 

[Yelsew]

I welcome that, you see Iron sharpens Iron.

 

[Ray Berrian]

If a person does not use their will to be saved, they won't be seen in Heaven. [Acts 16:31] Honestly, is it possible that a person would base their eternity on the hopes that God had mysteriously and autocratically elected them to their place in His everlasting Kingdom?

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If a person does not use their will to be saved, they won't be seen in Heaven. [Acts 16:31] Honestly, is it possible that a person would base their eternity on the hopes that God had mysteriously and autocratically elected them to their place in His everlasting Kingdom?

Ray,

When will you learn that to say that one is responsible is not the same as saying that they are able? Yes, we are responsible to believe in order to be saved. But that does not mena that we are able to do so apart from the work of God. You assume something crucial to your case which you really need to prove.

I would rather base my hopes ont he sovereign will of God then on some random chance that I was born with the "right stuff" to believe the gospel.

Do you really think that a salvation that is based on random factors is better than one based on divine will?

 

[Yelsew]

Divine will?

Did not God establish by divine will some 2000 years ago that whosoever believes on his son shall have eternal life?

Did God by divine will establish from the foundation of the world that His Son would be the atonement for sin?

Did God by divine will establish that the Blood of His son is payment in full for the sins of the world?

Did God by his divine will create man in his own image, giving man all the same attributes, save for the omni attributes, that he Himself has including free will?

I believe your argument is hollow and ill thoughtout!

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Divine will?

Did not God establish by divine will some 2000 years ago that whosoever believes on his son shall have eternal life?

Did God by divine will establish from the foundation of the world that His Son would be the atonement for sin?

Did God by divine will establish that the Blood of His son is payment in full for the sins of the world?

Did God by his divine will create man in his own image, giving man all the same attributes, save for the omni attributes, that he Himself has including free will?

I believe your argument is hollow and ill thoughtout!

The divine will also determined the content of the "whosoever". And it was a lot longer than 200 years ago.

Yes, God always planned that Jesus would be the atoning scrifice for sins. That is Calvanism.

Yes, Jesus is the propitiation of the world's sins. That also is calvanism.

Yes God gave to Adam the image of God. But then rthere was the Fall. Somethig you seemingly have never heard of; certainly you fail to grasp its impact on the image of God in humanity. That is Calvanism.

I think there is certainly something hollow but it is not my argument.

 

[Yelsew]

NO, IT IS NOT CALVINISM!

NO, IT IS NOT CALVINISM!

CALVIN DID NOT DIE ON THAT ROMAN CROSS.

CALVIN CAME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS IN THE SAME MANNER THAT ALL MANKIND COMES TO BELIEVE!

CALVIN IS NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAT THE WORST OF US!

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
NO, IT IS NOT CALVINISM!

NO, IT IS NOT CALVINISM!

CALVIN DID NOT DIE ON THAT ROMAN CROSS.

CALVIN CAME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS IN THE SAME MANNER THAT ALL MANKIND COMES TO BELIEVE!

CALVIN IS NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAT THE WORST OF US!

You don't even know what Calvanism is. So much is obvious from your posts. This one included.

No one claims Calvin died on the Cross. The systematic theology calle calvanism is scriptural though and teaches that Jesus died on the Cross because man is unable to satisfy the Father Himself.

Calvin came to believe because he was effectualy called. Yes he is no beter or worse than anyone else. That's becuase election is based on God's sovereignty , not our decision. It is your belief that makes some people better thanothers, some havig a certain je ne sais quoi to belive while others do not. Your god is a respecter of eprsons, a product of humanist thinking, a heretical notion.

I hope you will be able to show the maturity to reespond more appropriately. Yelling is unnecessary. Yelling such obvuous errors and false accusations is unchristian.

 

[Yelsew]

Posting that what Calvin believes then adhering to his beliefs for your own is UNCHRISTIAN!

There is no other name under Heaven whereby ye must be saved!

So get off your pius pony and get on your knees before Jesus...not Calvin!

For you to post as you do it is obvius you think salvation is Jesus plus Calvin!........WRONG!!!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Yelsew,

I think the Calvinists plus the rest of us are better than Father John Calvin. He had Servetus burned at the stake plus he tortured all those who did not 'fly right' in Geneva. Isn't there something in the Bible about a murderer not have everlasting life. [I John 3:14-16] If this verse means what it says, does this not mean that Calvin was not himself saved? Calvin patterned Geneva, a city of God after his counterpart, and theological guide--Augustine and his "City of God."

What do you think about our alleged theologian and real life manslayer?

 

[Yelsew]

Seems to me you have a point, but I would caution you that You do not know whether or not Calvin confessed his sin to God and received forgiveness thus renewing the relationship.

If Calvin was unrepentent, not one Calvinist will find their Icon in heaven.

 

[Frogman]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I deposit $100 into your bank account, you receive it without your will being involved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is God's method, except it has a twist, the unwilling now are made willing...imagine that.

Ps. 110.3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We disagree!

Do you disagree with the scripture?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

The $100. in your account . . .

We do not value at all extra-Biblical props. Stay with the Word of the Living God; then we listen. With your prop plus the 'corpse concept' we now have two.

 

[Yelsew]

You can deposit $100 to my account every day of the week. I assure you I will make it mine by spending it! The result? You have enriched my coffers, but you have not changed me.

So how do you change me? You don't, but you can provide me with evidence of the truth and I can change my mind about the truth.

 

[Frogman]

Fellas read Ps. 110 and tell me it is not speaking of Christ; Then tell me vs. 3 is speaking of a sinful creature who may or may not choose to be of his people.

It cannot be. The Psalm speaks of His people who are made willing in the day of His power.

Your will is changed by the Holy Spirit to accept; this is the only way you can accept; otherwise you (and myself) would choose to remain in the dark and fulfill a religious system whereby we may satisfy the lusts of our flesh but in all appearances be the children of God.

The Bible says we are all sinners; nowhere does it say from the O.T. through the N.T. that we as sinners can choose that which is Godly.

The 'dead man' scenario is throughout scripture, at best we are worms and but dust. We are at the mercy of God our creator. We are His because He is sovereign, According to His Will He quickens not ours.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

I suppose your declaration excludes the children of Israel.

[Deu 30:19,20] Today, I call heaven and earth to witness against you: I am offering you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, in the love of Yahweh your God, obeying his voice, holding fast to him; for in this your life consists, and on this depends the length of time that you stay in the country which Yahweh swore to your ancestors Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that he would give them.

The choice is laid before them to choose between life or death. Since life comes from God, I suppose that they could not choose life unless God put it in their hearts to choose life. Well after 40 years of wandering in the wilderness instead of making bricks for the pharoah, it seems that God did in truth put it into them to choose life, but they still had to make the choice.

 

[Frogman]

If you want to discuss Israel, tell me, why did they see all the miracles God worked in Egypt and at the Red Sea, and still did not believe God could deliver the people of Canaan into their land?

And...why did they have to wander in the wildnerness for 40 years, knowing the power of God to deliver them?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Bible-belted:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If a person does not use their will to be saved, they won't be seen in Heaven. [Acts 16:31] Honestly, is it possible that a person would base their eternity on the hopes that God had mysteriously and autocratically elected them to their place in His everlasting Kingdom?

Ray,

When will you learn that to say that one is responsible is not the same as saying that they are able? </font>[/QUOTE]Really? I thought that implicit in the concept of "responsibility" is the "ability to respond"

Responsibility: the quality or state of being responsible: as a:MORAL, legal, or MENTAL ACCOUNTABILITY....

How is one "morally accountable" for that which he can't choose otherwise? If you destroy accountability you in effect destroy both belief and sin.

Yes, we are responsible to believe in order to be saved.

Absolutely.

But that does not mena that we are able to do so apart from the work of God.

Of course not. God must seek us in order for us to RESPOND to HIM. If God left us to ourselves, NONE of us would respond to Him, since none of us seek after God. When God does seek/draw/convict we are then accountable to HOW we respond to Him.

I would rather base my hopes ont he sovereign will of God then on some random chance that I was born with the "right stuff" to believe the gospel.

What do you mean by "random chance"? What about "right stuff"? Each of us (unless mentally handicapped) is made to be MORALLY ACCOUNTABLE. That is the only "right stuff" (if you can call it that) that we have. It is only "random" in the sense that some (though by no means the majority) people are mentally handicapped to the extent where they cannot determine right from wrong and, therefore, are presumably not fully "accountable" for their actions.

Do you really think that a salvation that is based on random factors is better than one based on divine will?

I think you've erected a straw-man here. Most non-Calvinists I know don't attribute salvation to "random factors"--we attribute it to the GRACE of GOD

 

[Yelsew]

The question is capability to choose. As far back as the writings of Deuteronomy human chose was part of the plan. Today, modern religion says human choice is not possible.

That is simply oxymoronic on the part of modern religion.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Honestly, is it possible that a person would base their eternity on the hopes that God had mysteriously and autocratically elected them to their place in His everlasting Kingdom?

I am powerless to base my eternity on anything. But if you meant to ask if it would be possible to base my hope on God's mysterious election, IMO, it would be foolish to base my hope on anything else.