the "all" verse 18 and the "many" in 19

[Aki]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
If Christ died as the substitute for a person, then that person cannot be lost.

the root of the problem lies in equating payment for sins to justification. what Christ did on the cross was pay the penaly of sins. However, that does not make anybody rigtheous in the sight of God yet, having not been justified yet. justification comes during faith in Christ. otherwise, a soul remains condemned.

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Man is condemned to hell by his own sin, as I read in the Bible.

a man is first condemned because God imputed Adam's sin on him. thus, a man does not get spiritually dead because he commits sin. rather he sins because he is spiritually dead. in fact the law was given not to give man the chance to prove himself worthy to God, but instead for God to prove to man that he is spiritually dead! and the reason for that death is because God sovereignly chose to impute the original sin on everyone. the fact that we sin simply proves that we are dead, and not make us dead.

therefore, to those who believe that God died only for a few, then those who go to Hell which God did not die for are so condemned because of God's sovereignty in imputing that original sin on them which caused them their spiritual death.

however, the real case is that God imputed Adam's sin to everyone so that Christ's death will reach everyone. that is the doctrine behind verse 18. however, though he paid the penalty of sins of everyone, justification will come only at the point of faith. this means that man remains unacceptable to God, not having been declared righteous yet, though the penalty of their sins were paid for, since payment for sins and justification are two different things.

thus, upon payment of penalty of sins, the issue of salvation was shifted from a man having sins or not towards having faith in God or not.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." [I Cor. 15:22]

Arminians, does I Corinthians 15:22 mean all mankind will be made alive in Christ? I Corinthians 15:22 is precisely stating the same idea as Romans 5:8, 9. The theory of General Atonement, when run to its logical conclusion, is nothing more than Universalism.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Romans 5:18 cannot mean a universalism as though all will finally be saved. He provided salvation for all, but immediately afterword says that only--- ' . . . many will be made righteous.' (vs. 19).)

These two verses are very clearly in parallel. The same verse that says only many will be made righteous says that only many were made sinners. Does God send righteous people to hell? If all were made righteous, then who is in Rev 20:11-15??

 

[Pastor Larry]

Cut down the length of posts. The two posts above are entirely unacceptable. Summarize in brief fashion and give a link to the website. Do not cut and paste long sections.

 

[KenH]

The first "all" in Romans 5:18 refers to all of the seed that belongs to Adam. The second "all" refers to all of the seed that belongs to Christ.

In verse 19, the first "many" is in contrast to the "one" man who disobeyed. The second "many" is in contrast to the "one" Man who obeyed.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[Hardsheller]

Can one of you Arminians answer me this question.

If when you said yes to Jesus Christ you could have said no why didn't you?

It's a serious question - Think about it.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Can one of you Arminians answer me this question.

If when you said yes to Jesus Christ you could have said no why didn't you?

It's a serious question - Think about it.

I said no for a really long time before I said yes, and I think if a lot of us were honest, we would say the same thing. We wrestled with the Truth - wondering if we should place faith and trust in something we couldn't see. I heard the Holy Spirit's call on my life for about 10 years before responding to the gospel. Had I died before I said "yes" I would have surely gone to Hell.

The grace in my life wasn't irresistible, because of all the times I said no. Why didn't I do it? I convinced myself that I was a good person, I didn't want to have to admit to people that I wasn't saved since I was currently working in a church teaching sunday school, and I didn't know if I could reconcile everything in my head - much less my heart.

But I did say "no." It wasn't until Easter 1998 that I decided to follow Christ, placing my old self behind and becoming a holy child of God.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." [I Cor. 15:22]

Arminians, does I Corinthians 15:22 mean all mankind will be made alive in Christ? I Corinthians 15:22 is precisely stating the same idea as Romans 5:8, 9. The theory of General Atonement, when run to its logical conclusion, is nothing more than Universalism.

Semantics. In the Greek language, word order isn't as important as it is here. If Paul is emphasizing Christ and Adam (which it seems he is due to the context where he's comparing and contrasting those two men), then the all refers back to "in" the people. All in Adam and All in Christ.

General Atonement does NOT lead to Universalism, and over and over again it has been shown such.

 

[ScottEmerson]

And here's another translation of the passage:

1 Corinthians 15
22 All people who are of Adam die. And so also, all people who belong to Christ will live.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
the Greek language, word order isn't as important as it is here.

In Greek, word order is more important because it is not structurally an issue. Word order shows emphasis in many cases. In English, we cannot emphasize a word by putting it first or last; in Greek, they could ... and did.

As for your translation, you say what we have been saying all along. (Welcome to the party.) The "all" is not "all without exception." It is "all" of a particular group, as your translation as pointed out.

As for General atonement and universalism, what we are asking you to do is tell us by what Scriptural principle God sends someone to hell whose sins have been paid for. If Christ paid for the sins of the whole world without exception, then on what basis does God send anyone to hell? Can he, as a God of justice, exact two penalties (one from the invididual and one from Christ) for one and the same sin?

 

[Hardsheller]

The grace in my life wasn't irresistible

But in reality - wasn't it? Or else you would have merely said NO again.

The point I am trying to make is that in every Christian's life there is a point where we said yes to God's Salvation - And at that point in our lives there was no way we could have said NO - because we didn't. The proof is in our actions.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
In Greek, word order is more important because it is not structurally an issue. Word order shows emphasis in many cases. In English, we cannot emphasize a word by putting it first or last; in Greek, they could ... and did.

My point was that word order isn't needed for syntax in the way English is.

As for your translation, you say what we have been saying all along. (Welcome to the party.) The "all" is not "all without exception." It is "all" of a particular group, as your translation as pointed out.

No - the "all" specifically states its limitation. Such limitation isn't found in the passage in Romans that we're referring to.

As for General atonement and universalism, what we are asking you to do is tell us by what Scriptural principle God sends someone to hell whose sins have been paid for.

Isaiah 53:6. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

1 John 2:1, 2 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not, And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

(Calvin in his later days wrote in regard to I John 2:2 as follows: "Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and in the goodness of God is offered unto all men without distinction, His blood being shed not for a part of the world only, but for the whole human race; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet He holds out the propitiation to the whole world, since without exception He summons all to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than the door unto hope.")

2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (They were bought even though they were false prophets)

I Timothy 4:10. "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe." Does this mean that God is the savior of the elect, especially the elect? That's crazy talk.

It can be noted that in his last will and testament in 1564, "I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat...."(op. cit., p 829).

If Christ paid for the sins of the whole world without exception, then on what basis does God send anyone to hell? Can he, as a God of justice, exact two penalties (one from the invididual and one from Christ) for one and the same sin?

Because his death doesn't automatically equal salvation. A person must repent, believe, and make Christ Lord. If death=salvation, there would be no need of doing those things. They'd be saved anyway.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The limitation on "all" in Rom 5 is clearly there, both in exegesis and in theology. Simply put, "all" were not made righteous, but "all in the one man of obedience" were made righteous.

As for your references, none of those prove that Christ's death was meritorious to pay for the sins of the unsaved. The most you can say is that Christ's death was sufficient for their sins (which is exactly what I would say). YOu cannot say that Christ's death paid for their sins. None of those verses declares that to be true.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
As for your references, none of those prove that Christ's death was meritorious to pay for the sins of the unsaved. The most you can say is that Christ's death was sufficient for their sins (which is exactly what I would say). YOu cannot say that Christ's death paid for their sins. None of those verses declares that to be true.[/QB]

Care to go into detail? The Lord placed the iniquity of all men on Christ? What were they doing there if not being paid for? He is the propitiation for the entire world - and you didn't even comment that Calvin himself, in his later years, denied that God only died for some! False teachers were "bought" - that sounds like Christ sure paid for their sins, unless bought doesn't mean bought. and Christ is the Saviour of ALL men doesn't mean what it means?

Especially the Peter comment that says that the false teachers did so even when they were bought... that says exactly that Christ paid for something!

 

[tyndale1946]

Primitive Baptist this doesn't apply to you. You know what I mean!... Nice Post... Another brother of like precious Faith... Brother Glen

[ June 26, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[russell55]

Scott,

I wasn't intending to get into a discussion for/against irresistable grace. That would be off the topic of the thread....

I just wanted to address what I saw as a misconception on your part about the calvinistic doctrine of irresistible grace--that misconception being that in order for irresistible grace to be true, people must respond positively to every prompting from the Spirit.

[ June 26, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

The multitude of posts here were deleted because they do not deal with the topic of this thread -- "the "all" verse 18 and the "many" in 19." If you wish to discuss another topic, feel free to do so in its own thread. Reserve this one for issues relating to the "all" verse 18 and the "many" in 19.

Moderator

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Care to go into detail?

Sure, a little. The issue is efficiency, or actual satisfaction. Christ's death propitiated for the sins of those who believe (without respect to why they believe at the moment). Even you limit thte atonement in that way.

The necessary distinction is between sufficiency and efficiency. Most certainly, Christ's death was sufficient for every sin of every man that has ever been committed. If God had decreed to save everyone, no more would have been required. However, that death was not efficient for all. Scripture teaches that Christ's death accomplished something, not simply made it possible. And since Christ's death accomplished propitiation, God cannot pursue propitiation for those whose sins have already been propitiated. In other words, he cannot obtain satisfaction from Christ and still send a sinner to hell.

There is a universal sense to the atonement. I do not deny that. 2 Peter 2:1 is a strong verse in that favor (though not impregnable). The point is still one of sufficiency vs. efficiency.

Getting back to Rom 5, the "all" in Christ are those for whom the death was efficient.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Post deleted since I could find nothing in it related to the "the "all" verse 18 and the "many" in 19." Let's do better about this my friends.

[ June 27, 2002, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
How about this question? In Hebrews 6, it says that it is impossible for those "enlightened by the Holy Spirit" to be saved again - since you don't believe this is talking about those who can lose their salvation, how is it possible people are enlightened by the Holy Spirit yet not saved?

Scott,

The Bible is clear there are those who are fellow travelers(at least for a while) with true believers but they are false brethren - tares among the wheat, or as the apostle John said in 1 John they were not really of us because if they were of us they would have stayed with us.

We are given warnings in the Bible as means for our sanctification. Justification happens once in a moment. Sanctification is a lifelong process. Without warnings then we might think that after our justification, we need not be concerned about our sanctification.

(John 10:27-29 NKJV) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. {28} "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. {29} "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...