The American Revolution

Well you got one thing right and that is opinions do not make facts! I agree with you statement. But facts make facts, stats can show facts, and history can prove irrefutable.

None of which matters to me. However, if you beleive a producer with a proven biased and radical background; is completely reliable on a subject irrespective of what history also says, so be it.

Where Brent Bozell is concerned. Again it matters not to me and I am sure he puts out plently of opinions. He and that foundation also put out provable statistics and are Nationally recognized. Again if you wish to simply disregard then so be it.:wavey:

 

Sir George of Washington and the American Revolution

Has anyone verified the connection between George Washington and Freemasonry?

Would there be an interesting story here?

This observer has not found many references to the "doctrines of sovereign grace" in the writings of the "powers that be" among the founding fathers of 1776. Salvation by works is a dominant theme--consistent with F&AM, however--"good guys, getting better".

Frats are an interesting study.

I would still defend our Constitution to the end.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

But the idea that it doesn't is only your opinion.

 

One of the things that bothers me is the tendency to make each and every one of our Founding Fathers as being 100% dedicated conservative, evangelical Christians. Maybe some were, but maybe some weren't.

They were all flawed human beings just like we are today and to elevate each and every one of them (and each and every thing that they did from day 1 of their birth) as being faultless is something we need to be careful not to do.

Yes, they did some great things, but to view each and every one of them as Bible-thumpers 24/7/365 would not be correct either.

My point is not to disrespect these people.....but let's not forget that they were people!

There was only One Man who is sinless, and He wasn't here in person in the 18th century!

 

I used to live a couple of blocks away from Independance Hall. In fact, I used to have to walk past it every day on my way to the Hi-Speed Line and Reading Terminal.

Where were you born?

 

ktn4eg,

You're exactly right. As much awe as I have for them, one need not look deep to find some major personal and moral flaws in many of them.

I'm jealous of both you and Mike. On my one trip to Philly, aside from bar-hopping once in the Navy 20+ years ago, IH was closed for some renovation. Seeing it remains one of my dreams.

 

Hello All!:wavey:

I agree with your statement but don't see where anyone claims such.

Bring it on! This is all good stuff and your speaking the truth. To point out one thing, I believe the Founders would be the first to agree here also!

I agree with most your statements, ktn4eg! However, I believe you will find more people today try and tear down the Founders and their faith. Atheist and other groups will greatly and purposefully misrepresent their faith. Many to the point of suggesting they were barely more than atheists. Which is absolutely furtherest from the truth! I come across it often.
Then some Christians will minimize their religion. As they apply their values and belief standards on them, etc. Which is something I personally feel we should be careful of. As only Jesus truly can know what is in a man's heart.

With all the same shortcomings as us. Yes you are right. Some were also much more amiable and steadfast in their walk than others. Such as easily seen with Washington in comparison to Jefferson. I simply point this out; because I may have earlier implied Jefferson was steadfast or more than, in his faith. His own words and history speak for itself.

Yes, and we can only strive to live as Jesus. To pray for his guidance and forgiveness. Ralph:Fish:
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As with Fromtheright, I also am jealous of some of you. Having no memory of many of the trips we took in my youth. I am eagerly looking forward to visiting many of the places spoken of.

 

I am with you on defending the Constitution and Founders. I do not know much about freemasonry but will share the following.

A) World Book:

From my readings Masonry in America was very different from the rest of the World. Indeed it was somewhat unique in each country as reflected that countries people and values, etc. They note it was mostly Protestants. Who advocated freedom of conscience and faith, and accepted the Bible as the authority for revealed truth. Thus they rejected the Pope, established Church, and Kings’ as the authority. In regards to the Catholic Church and Masons in Europe, they deplored each other. Catholics were forbidden to belong to the Masons and I think such is still the case.


B) In respect to George Washington:

I just finished a book by Michael Novak titled "Washington's God". This was an
excellent book and I highly recommend! He touches upon George Washington and the Freemason noting his attendance to Lodge meetings was extremely rare! George Washington corresponded with Reverend G.W. Snyder on this subject in 1798. The Reverend emigrated from Germany and had some concerns with a possible radical movement within the Masons, in America.

Washington:

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/to...deng/parsed&tag=public&part=339&division=div1 Photo copies available, Library of Congress.

He soon wrote the Reverend back to clarify a little. As he did not doubt what the Reverend was saying in regards, to there being some sort of movement. Only he felt it was not organized and again agreed evil. This movement sought to undermine Government and Religion.

Washington:

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/to...deng/parsed&tag=public&part=388&division=div1 Photo copies available at Library of Congress.

The World Book and others note, an anti-Masonic movement occurred in the late 1820's and 1830's; due to their meddling in government affairs, changing nature, and secrecy. It was very different than what Washington and others had been associated with. This almost destroyed it and it wasn’t until the 1860’s or so before they regained respect and popularity.

The author Michael Novak goes on to explain; How many American Christians then and now, "have found nothing incompatible between Freemasonry and Christianity”. George Washington’s induction prayer concluded “Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.” It’s noted by others as well, many people got involved with the Masons, including Founders, simply because of the good works done in the communities. This included active participation of bishops and clergymen.

So I would not take it to hard that many belonged to the Masons, nor the influence of some philosophy. As they believed God could and does “naturally” reveal himself to people. Though such people would not have the distinct Revelations, as given and contained in the Bible. In any account, knowledge offered more understanding of God and freedom of people, than did ignorance. Masons like to shout of Washington's membership, wheras others try and use it to discredit him. You can probably chuckle at both!

To keep such in perspective with George Washington. Washington “was a leading member of his parish Church, serving as a warden or a vestryman over a period of fifteen years.” He at times attended services twice on a given day. He traveled with his family seven miles, 3 hour round trip, for Sunday services when available. At other times they traversed to their second parish, in Alexandria, even further away. Which Washington also supported.

In recounting her grandfathers’ faith and practices, Eleanor(“Nelly”) Parke Curtis said,

Jesus teaches us in Matt: 6;5-6

raise:



"Fromtheright" and others could probably offer or clarify more. Y'all have a great one! Ralph

 

If you ever want an excellent perspective on George Washington's faith, visit his home church, Christ Church, in Alexandria, Virginia. You can sit in the Washington family pew, and most of the church building, except for a few things to bring it up to date (like air conditioning and a floor) is still kept the way it was when he worshipped there. One of the tour guides who works there is very well informed about Washington's faith, especially the passages from one of his diaries related to his belief and worship.

This historic church was originally an Anglican congregation, and is now part of the Episcopal church. Three worship services are conducted there each Sunday. The one we attended several years ago was packed. Apparently people were a bit smaller in those days, or they didn't care all that much about comfort in the pews. Even though the room easily accomodates 400 people, including a balcony, there is no electronic sound system. The pastor climbs into a pulpit in a little round enclosure about 10 feet off the floor. Above him is a wooden device that distrubutes the sound throughout the room.

I'd say that this particular church is probably a testimony to the type of worship that was common in colonial days, and in the period following the revolution. The guide pointed out that, as a result of the distance from Mt. Vernon, Washington was not an "every Sunday" attender at Christ Church, but often went to private services with some of his slaves and family members at the plantation, or attended another Anglican church not far from the house. He would not fall into the category of "evangelical" Christian.

 

That is good stuff Jack Mathews!

I wish you would go into a little more detail with what you saw and offer some more insightful stuff. Washington was supposed to have kept a depiction of the Virgin Mary, by one of the fireplaces near the entrance of his estate. This was removed for a long period of time but restored within the last few years. Did you get to see such?

I would like to add. Another reason Washington did not attend church every Sunday was because there was often no Anglican Preacher available. The author notes it would be weeks before one was able to return to specific churches. This is why Washington and his family would at times traverse the greater distance to Alexandria. As noted a church he also supported with his time and finances.


Have a good one! Ralph

 

This is exactly why it is dangerous for us to project what we may think of as normal for our day and time here at the outset of the twenty-first century back into the days of the late eigthteenth century.

It is essential to evaluate all primary and secondary source material before a truly accurate assessment can be made of any historical figure!

What may have a certain connotation or significance to us today might have had a totally different connotation or significance to those people of that era.

In our desire to believe that noble people such as George Washington would have felt right at home occupying the "Amen Corner" of our Baptist churches today, we may tend to forget that often he had other things to do too. Moreover, what may have been true about him at one stage of his life may not have been true about him at another stage of life.

For example, let's suppose you didn't come to know Christ as Savior until later on in life. Would the content of the letters you may have written to your spouse or a business associate before that point in your life be any different than those you would have written to those same people after you trusted Christ as your Savior?

More than likely they would be. However, suppose your letters prior to your salvation experience were preserved in a trunk somewhere, but those you wrote after being saved were destroyed in a fire.

Now, 200 or more years later, a person sees the trunk wherein those letters that you wrote before your salvation experience occurred are stored. They may not care about what's in the trunk--they simply are looking at the antique value of the trunk. So they purchase the trunk from the antique dealer, drive to their home (which, by now, may be some place far removed from where you lived while you were living), gently pry open the trunk and start to read these letters that you wrote before you were saved.

You wrote them, they are in your handwriting, but I kind of believe that these people who are now reading them some 200+ years later may just get the wrong impression of what you were really like as a person when you left this world if those letters you wrote were all they had to evaluate what type of person you, in truth, turned out to be, wouldn't they?

See my point?

 

Yes those are all good points. As I noted we as Christians should be careful not to place our standards and times upon people from long ago.


* It is very convenient for us to get in a car and drive around the corner for worship service. Which is held every week and on time, for the most part. HA.

* We are more outward with our faith than many of that time. Which by the way, is something atheist try and use against Founders. By implying they could not have been "that" religious as some were reluctant to show it. When in truth this does not mean they were any less Christian or faithful at all. In fact, it could mean they were actually even more Christian and/or faithful. Christ instructs us to pray in privacy. He also instructs us to do our good deeds and charitable work in secrecy. For that which is done in secret will be rewarded openly by the Lord. Those who do all in public, for men to see, will not receive the same blessings. Or create treasures in Heaven for themselves.

* Another good point you made was our walk through life. Often people's lives are somewhat representative of a roller coaster. Washington seemed to be very steady throughout his life. Whereas Jefferson was all over the place in his walk. His life in regards to faith/religion is seemingly full of contradictions. Thus he gave certain groups plenty to boast upon. As they will take much out of context.

* Though many were reserved in nature with their faith, they did often do things openly and publicly. In addition many, especially Washington, truly lived by example.

Have a good one! Ralph