The Answer to the Debate

Us whom he hath called?
All men are "Called", "If I be lifted up I'll draw ALL man to me!" That is Grace extended to ALL men!

Not all will believe, and indeed, "Broad is the way to destruction, Narrow the pathway to life and there are few who find it" (paraphrase).

If one is "Elect" they have no choice but do they have to find the path? or are they PLACED on the path? One of those options is of Jesus, the other of Calvin!

[ April 03, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Wes, Outwest ]

 

Rich, are you not aware that the scripture you posted is Paul explaining Israel to Rome? It does not support your theory of election except when you take it out of context!

Yes I am aware Paul is discussing Israel, my point is that God does elect some for honour and some for dishonour. God does elect some for salvation and not others. He has the clay in his hand and is able to do as He wishes.
Wes you still haven't posed your take on the whole of Romans 9 for me yet. I'm curious to see your take.

 

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory </font>[/QUOTE]Rich, are you not aware that the scripture you posted is Paul explaining Israel to Rome? It does not support your theory of election except when you take it out of context! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes,
Are you saying that He(the Potter) does not mold us,today? </font>[/QUOTE]No Here now, that is not what I am saying. Read Romans 9, 10, and 11 in one setting with this in mind. Put yourself in Paul's place 2000 years ago, he is explaining to the ROMANS, Israel's place, ending with God's plan for Israel.

If you had the task of writing to the Romans about God, and Jesus, and the new covenant what would you say? Wouldn't you explain some of the history of God's relationship with man?

Just as "the Potter" explains man's position relative to Almighty God. The same applies to us today. We are nothing more than "clay in a potters hands". We have no say in what God does to us, what he makes with us. He is the Creator, we are the result of his creation. We are in no position to question the work of the Creator! We are not "equals" with God. We are not even very good observers of God's work, for to be such we would have to remove ourselves from our lives (impossible) to be able to view what God is doing with us.

That is why I say that Romans 9 does not support Calvinism's "Election theory".

 

Wes John 12:32 speaks of Jesus drawing literally, all kinds of men to him. The word draw is the same word that is used when Jesus says in John 6:44.If the word all meant literally every single man ever, then how is this reconciled to the fact that God hardens some and not others?

 

That is the answer I expected from a Calvinist!

 

I've been asking for identification of the elect since I first started posting on this forum.

What kind of thinking is this? You knock the "elect" because we don't have a list of names so that for some bizarre reason nullifies all the scripture that has elect as those who believe and then you have the audacity to say the elect are the twelve apostles? Where does it EXPLICITLY say that? Again as usual you self refute yourself...

Wes, why do you even need this forum? You can just talk to yourself and and have a good debate! The sad thing is, you wouldn't even know it!

 

John 17 The prayer of Jesus

1. After saying this, Jesus raised his eyes to heaven and said:Father, the hour has come: glorify your Son so that your Son may glorify you; 2. so that, just as you have given him power over all humanity, he may give eternal life to all those you have entrusted to him. 3. And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4. I have glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. 5. Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed. 6. I have revealed your name to those whom you took from the world to give me.

Now, refer to Chapters 13 through 16. Who are the ones the father gave to Jesus? Who was with Jesus when he prayed (chapter 17)? Are you going to deny that it was those 11 whom God gave to Jesus to teach in His Jesus Seminary? #12 was ALSO elected because God gave Judas to Jesus in order to fulfill prophesy that he would be betrayed. BETRAYAL never comes from outside, it is always from within. You can be attacked from outside, but you cannot be betrayed from outside!

 

God is not the Author of confusion...

Scripture is all meant to be explicit.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1995ii/Congdon.htm

 

What about the millions whose faith predates Chauvin and Arminius? Are there only two camps?

There is still a remnant--of those who came not from Rome nor her daughters.

Who called this debate?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

"all kinds of men"? This is what the Calvinist would want us to believe! So, when the Bible says that "all have sinned", is this also talking about "all kinds on men", or would you say that it means "everyone without exception"? I am sure the latter, or else you would be found to contradict the Word of God!

Now, the Apostle Paul saya, "that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Timothy 2:15). Lets get this from the Calvinistic perspective. They hold that Jesus died ONLY FOR THE ELECT. Right? So, when Paul says that Jesus came to "save sinners", he was only referring to the "elect" here. Right? If this be the case, then we must conclude that the "non-elect" are RIGHTEOUS, since they cannot be included in the "sinners" whom Jesus came to save! Unless, of course you want us to believe that Paul's use of "sinners" here means "every kind of sinner", which would land us in the absurdity of saying that the rest of the world did not fall into the category of "sinners", and therefore when the Bible says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", it cannot mean "everyone without exception"? Can you guys see the complete nonsense of the Calvinistic system?

What do you make of John 1:11-12?

"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"

Who is John here speaking of, "His own"? Is this reference to the "elect"? If so, then John says that the "elect", "did not receive Him". If the first part refers to the "Jews", which I believe that it does, and the next part to the "elect", the language John uses still does not make any sense: "but AS MANY AS received Him", a statement that claerly shows that even of the second class referred to, which is argued by some to mean the "elect", that "ALL the elect will not receive Him". The only possible way to understand these words, is that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, that is, everyone without exception, and out of the "whole world", "as many as received Him..." Do you follow what I am saying?

 

How come you guys who hold to the Calvinistic position, ignore the "Universal Atonement" text in 2 Peter 2:1?

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction"

Can you read that Jesus even died for ("bought", same Greek word used in 1 Corinthians 6:20, "you were bought with a price..." (and 7:23)false teachers and false prophets. Or, are we to conclude from this that Peter is spaeking of the "elect"?

 

This isn't that hard...
Those who didn't receive Him where the Jews
Those who did receive Him are the elect.

Mind you the following verse. It also explains how they became children of God also..

John 1:12-13 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of THE WILL of the flesh nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of God.

 

Look at the second phrase, "who believed in his name".

Are you trying to say that only those nebulous, during our life time, elect that no one knows who they are, are the only ones who believe in the name of Jesus?

GOOD! That solves the mystery! Every gang member I've ever known is SAVED! Glory! Praise the Lord. Even those rascals that broke into my home and stole my stuff are SAVED! They all use the name of Jesus, that means they must believe in the name!

 

Not to mention the fact that the doctrine of Irresistable Grace is clearly refuted by Acts 7:51.

 

Icthus,

If you really want to know what the verse means in context, try the following sites:
http://aomin.org/2PE21.html
http://www.the-highway.com/2Pet2.1.html

Many other Arminian prooftexts are explained in their context at the following site if you would like further study:
http://www.the-highway.com/atonement.html


Hope this helps,
In Christ

 

What does the Jews having historically rebelled against God and resisted the leading of the Holy Spirit have to do with resisting the effectual calling of God to salvation? </font>[/QUOTE]Plenty. Don't you know that your doctrine of total depravity and that your interpretation of 1 Cor. 2:14 has God talking to a wall instead of to people? Why would the Holy Spirit talk to 'dead' people and then get angry when they won't hear Him?

And don't you know that Stephen was talking to them about Jesus Christ and the salvation message with his comparison of their rejection of Christ and their rejection of His prophets in the OT?

 

Finally a truthful statement.

From your perspective, everything that you know IS true.

That which you don't know then must be false.

I just know that you do not know anything that is false. YOU JUST DECLARED IT!

 

A great and joyful point Dave. That Book of Life was written from the foundation of the world. [Revelation 17:8]