The Antichrist - Revealed Before Or After The Rapture?

[Me4Him]

Some help, please.

How do we know that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit? Can anyone provide a specific, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture verse which identifies the HS as the Restrainer?

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

The Holy "GHOST OF JESUS" (Comforter) didn't speak in the OT.

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation that I Thess 4:13-18 is pre-tribulational?

From that one section, NO, Israel goes back under the law and prophets system, the woman caught in adultery should have been stoned to death, she wasn't, we're not under the "LAW", but under "GRACE".

During the trib people will die for violations of the law, one reason the AC is allowed to kill them, saved or not.

Under Grace, we only "Spiritually" crucify the body of sin, during trib they will have to be willing to literally crucify the body of sin to be saved.

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Grace and Law can't function at the same time, same timeframe, therefore a Pre trib rapture. (grace ended/back under the law)

Have to leave, finishe later.

 

[Palatka51]

Great Questions...

With every generation... there has been a falling away for various reasons such as but not limited to: persecution, tempation, moral lapse, worldliness, ignorance that often leads to trickery influences (as happend in the church at Galatia... etc.).

However, it is my understanding that there will be a general falling away prior to the revealing of the anti-christ. As a matter of fact... I believe that the Church in general is progressively falling away presently into a state of entrenched carnality.

The antichrist will appear and present himself as the Christ to a lost world after the Church is raptured. In particular, he will seek for the attention and affection of Israel...

Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger - www.InvitationToChrist.org

We shall see which is right, shall we not? Christ is coming and the Church will have tribulation, as the antichrist will make war with the saints. Before he is triumphant over the Church, Christ will remove it and poor out His wrath upon the beast and the false prophet.

 

[Palatka51]

Some help, please.

How do we know that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit? Can anyone provide a specific, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture verse which identifies the HS as the Restrainer?

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation that I Thess 4:13-18 is pre-tribulational?

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject----oh, you know--that the wrath mentioned in I Thess 5:9 is the wrath of the Anti-Christ?

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal--oh, you know--that the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are Jewish evangelists or missionaries.

How do we know that the Anti-Christ is alive today?

I believe that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. In that same restraining way that Jesus gave permission for Judas to do what he had to do and to do it quickly. Jesus' permission to Judas to betray Him in essence is Jesus stepping aside, removing Himself, for Judas to work. Remember all the attempts to kill Jesus by stoning and Satan's attempt to have Jesus jump from the Temple spire? None of these attempts succeeded because none went by the way of the cross which was God's way.

The Antichrist will have permission to make war with the Church just the same way that God gave Satan permission to afflict Job. Noah was made sport of as well as Lot. The Church will be no different than any of these Saints that lived at the time God's wrath was poured upon man. In each case the Saint (Noah, Lot) was removed just before God's wrath was unleashed after they had tribulation for standing for their belief in God.

Judas would not have had the guts to do the thing of himself. Neither will Satan without permission from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Me4Him]

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject----oh, you know--that the wrath mentioned in I Thess 5:9 is the wrath of the Anti-Christ?

I'll try to finish now. :thumbs:

The AC being "turned loose" on mankind is God's wrath.

In a "nutshell", the AC is used as a "ROD" by God to "Chastise" Israel.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (wicked people)

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff (authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

The Assyrian, Nebuchadnezzar, Rome have all been used as "RODS" by God, the AC is next in line.

Jesus's "STRIPES" in his flesh made peace with God for believers, Israel will suffer these "STRIPES" in their flesh as Chastisement, they "literally" "Drink of Jesus's cup". (literal death)

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This "Chastisment" isn't due the church, or "Body of Christ" which has already been "Striped".

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal--oh, you know--that the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are Jewish evangelists or missionaries.

They are all from the twelve tribes.

How do we know that the Anti-Christ is alive today?

http://www.daysofgod.com Second page details some of the prophecies, won't link for some reason.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him: // http://www.daysofgod.com //

those charts are probably in the BB archives

the best place to find them would be in Google

Check my eschatology over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1338967#post1338967

 

[Palatka51]

This "Chastisment" isn't due the church, or "Body of Christ" which has already been "Striped".

I am sorry, but that is just not Biblical. If you are without chastisement then you are a son void of love from his father.
Rev 3:19
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[webdog]

I am sorry, but that is just not Biblical. If you are without chastisement then you are a son void of love from his father.
Rev 3:19
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I believe that church in Laodicea was not a true "church". John MacArthur has stated it was a church in name only...kinda like the Roman Catholic "Church".

 

[OldRegular]

We shall see which is right, shall we not? Christ is coming and the Church will have tribulation, as the antichrist will make war with the saints. Before he is triumphant over the Church, Christ will remove it and poor out His wrath upon the beast and the false prophet.

How can Satan or the antichrist be triumphant over the Body of Christ? I don't believe it. I thought Jesus Christ said something like " the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Also I thought God was the Sovereign in the Universe, not satan. tell me where I am going wrong. PLEASE!

 

[OldRegular]

Some help, please.

How do we know that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit? Can anyone provide a specific, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture verse which identifies the HS as the Restrainer?

No!:laugh:

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation that I Thess 4:13-18 is pre-tribulational?

No!No!NO!:laugh:

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject----oh, you know--that the wrath mentioned in I Thess 5:9 is the wrath of the Anti-Christ?

I doubt it!:laugh:

Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal--oh, you know--that the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are Jewish evangelists or missionaries.

Not From Scripture!:laugh:

 

[Palatka51]

How can Satan or the antichrist be triumphant over the Body of Christ? I don't believe it. I thought Jesus Christ said something like " the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Also I thought God was the Sovereign in the Universe, not satan. tell me where I am going wrong. PLEASE!

Never said Satan would be triumphant.

We shall see which is right, shall we not? Christ is coming and the Church will have tribulation, as the antichrist will make war with the saints. Before he is triumphant over the Church, Christ will remove it and poor out His wrath upon the beast and the false prophet.

 

[Palatka51]

How can Satan or the antichrist be triumphant over the Body of Christ? I don't believe it. I thought Jesus Christ said something like " the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Also I thought God was the Sovereign in the Universe, not satan. tell me where I am going wrong. PLEASE!

The gates of Hell is not Satan. Hell and the gates thereof is the entrapment of the wrath of God upon Satan and his followers. Gates is in reference to that which when closed nothing can escape it. The Church will not be subject to being locked behind those gates. Hence "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

Satan has always been given permission to harass the Church. The Antichrist will conduct a world wide genocide against all believers. He will not succeed as Christ will intervene by pulling it out. As soon as He does, God's wrath will fall upon unrepentant men.

Suppose a world leader as popular as Barak Obama (and please note that I am in no way stating that he is the Antichrist) were to be wounded in an assassination attempt but is "miraculously" healed within just a few days. The whole world would flock after him. The deception would have begun and the world would accept him as Christ. The Church would become a laughing stock as it would shout out in warning that this man is the evil one.

We are already under the number system that the Bible warns us of (Social Security, for without it we can not buy nor sell). We are just not under command to bow just yet. When that choice is mandated, who will be able to refuse it? Only the Church. If the Church is removed along with the Holy Spirit there will be no resistance to his deceptions and thus no real need for a number. Yet if the Church is here there is to be a separation. The wheat from the tares. The goats from the sheep. This is that time. After all that will take the number are secured and most of all that have refused are in prison or dead then the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. Now comes the rapture and immediately after that comes wrath. The tares to be burned and the wheat to be gathered into the barn. The Goats to be slaughtered and the Lambs to eternal life.

 

[Palatka51]

I believe that church in Laodicea was not a true "church". John MacArthur has stated it was a church in name only...kinda like the Roman Catholic "Church".

So Laodicea is just treated like a red headed step child then. Chastised like a son but in all actuality is a bastard. I am sorry but the text just doesn't read like that at all. This is a Church that Jesus loves and He exhorts them to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, the fire of great tribulation. What a test of faith it would be to resist the deceptions of the Antichrist. Truly gold tried in the hottest furnace ever made. Then as such will yield to most purest Gold.

Is the star of Laodicea ever spoken of as having been removed? No. So this is a Church in much more than name only. It is a Church that is worldly. A Church that has lost it's brotherly purpose. A Church that has supported the things of the world that brings it riches that are not the riches of Christ. Like that of many Christians that supported political leaders that promise economic empowerment but reject innocent life.

So it's gold is refined and the worldly chaff is burnt away. Jesus will not let any that are called by His name to be taken into eternity lost. :godisgood:

 

[canadyjd]

The gates of Hell is not Satan. Hell and the gates thereof is the entrapment of the wrath of God upon Satan and his followers. Gates is in reference to that which when closed nothing can escape it. The Church will not be subject to being locked behind those gates. Hence "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

The "gates" which Jesus mentioned refers to siege weapons that were called "gates".

These "gates" were huge stairways, on wheels, that would be rolled up to a wall of a city. Once close, the "gate" at the top would open and the invading army would pour in.

If you watched the movie "The Lord of the Rings, the Return of the King", you will remember the siege of the great city. You will also remember the huge staircases that were pushed up to the walls to allow the invading army to enter.

That is a siege "gate", and that is the kind of gate Jesus was referring to when He said the "gates of hell" shall not prevail against the church.

Hope that helps

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

Satan has always been given permission to harass the Church. The Antichrist will conduct a world wide genocide against all believers. He will not succeed as Christ will intervene by pulling it out. As soon as He does, God's wrath will fall upon unrepentant men.

Yes! But saying that God will pull the Church out of the world is giving Satan the victory over the Church. [edit] The Church will be on earth until Jesus Christ returns at which time there will be a general resurrection and judgment, Satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire, and the redeemed will enter the New Heavens and earth to dwell with the Triune God throughout eternity.

 

[webdog]

Yes! But saying that God will pull the Church out of the world is giving Satan the victory over the Church. [edit] The Church will be on earth until Jesus Christ returns at which time there will be a general resurrection and judgment, Satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire, and the redeemed will enter the New Heavens and earth to dwell with the Triune God throughout eternity.

What's ....edit...is to think the church will be subject to God's wrath against an unbelieving world. Makes no sense, whatsoever. The Great Tribulation is not "persecution", either, so that argument holds no water. The purpose of the GT is to fulfil God's plan for Israel (Romans 11)

 

[webdog]

So Laodicea is just treated like a red headed step child then. Chastised like a son but in all actuality is a bastard. I am sorry but the text just doesn't read like that at all. This is a Church that Jesus loves and He exhorts them to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, the fire of great tribulation. What a test of faith it would be to resist the deceptions of the Antichrist. Truly gold tried in the hottest furnace ever made. Then as such will yield to most purest Gold.

Is the star of Laodicea ever spoken of as having been removed? No. So this is a Church in much more than name only. It is a Church that is worldly. A Church that has lost it's brotherly purpose. A Church that has supported the things of the world that brings it riches that are not the riches of Christ. Like that of many Christians that supported political leaders that promise economic empowerment but reject innocent life.

So it's gold is refined and the worldly chaff is burnt away. Jesus will not let any that are called by His name to be taken into eternity lost. :godisgood:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/studyguides/960

What church has Christ on the ouside knocking to come in? No TRUE church.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by Palatka51
Satan has always been given permission to harass the Church. The Antichrist will conduct a world wide genocide against all believers. He will not succeed as Christ will intervene by pulling it out. As soon as He does, God's wrath will fall upon unrepentant men.

Original response by OldRegular
Yes! But saying that God will pull the Church out of the world is giving Satan the victory over the Church. That is a bunch of crap to be blunt. The Church will be on earth until Jesus Christ returns at which time there will be a general resurrection and judgment, Satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire, and the redeemed will enter the New Heavens and earth to dwell with the Triune God throughout eternity.

What's "crap" is to think the church will be subject to God's wrath against an unbelieving world. Makes no sense, whatsoever. The Great Tribulation is not "persecution", either, so that argument holds no water. The purpose of the GT is to fulfil God's plan for Israel (Romans 11)

Hey webdog you are adding something to my post that I did not say, I have never said that the Church is subject to the wrath of God. Scripture tells us:

1Thessalonians 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Furthermore, any Israelite that is saved will be saved as an individual through faith in Jesus Christ. If God's plan for Israel is that which Chafer claims I feel for them:

Lewis Sperry Chafer [as quoted by Ryrie in Dispensationalism, page 39] states: “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity”.

But Scripture tells us that this earth flees from the face of Jesus Christ [Revelation 20:11]. Where does that leave Israel?

 

[hawg_427]

AFTER THE RAPTURE!!!!! The DAY OF THE LORD.....

 

[OldRegular]

AFTER THE RAPTURE!!!!! The DAY OF THE LORD.....

And what does that mean? The Great White Throne Judgment?

 

[canadyjd]

The Great Tribulation is not "persecution", either, so that argument holds no water. The purpose of the GT is to fulfil God's plan for Israel (Romans 11)

Rev. 7:9 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes...."

(14)..."And he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'"

(16)..."They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore...."

(17)..."for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the water of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes."

Observations:

1. These are believers who died during the tribulation period.

2. They came from all nations, not just Israel.

peace to youraying: