The Apostate Gospel of works

[Dr. Walter]

I will step you through this one more time. Romans 2:11-16 has reference to THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT. Verse 16 actually says "in the day when God shall....judge". Verse 16 precedes and introduces verses 17-18.

Paul pointedly deals with what "the Jew" will "boast" of in the day of judgement. Paul pointedly deals with what the Jew "restest" in on the day of judgement. There is no circular reasoning here, vv. 16-17 are joined at the hip in regard to THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT in regard to the "Jew."

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

There is no circular reasoning here. Paul specifically points out what the Jew in the day of judgement will rest in - he will rest "IN THE LAW." There is no circular reasoning here. Paul specifically points out what the Jew in the day of judgement will "boast" in. What he will "boast" in is spelled out in clear explicit language in verse 18:

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law

The "boast" of the Jew in the day of Judgement is that the Jew know "HIS WILL" - the will of God. Knows the will of God in regard to what?? In regard to what he rests in "THE LAW OF GOD." This is what he is "being INSTRUCTED OUT OF" to know the will of God. No circular reasoning here at all - but plainly stated.

Now, we come to the phrase "approvest THE THINGS that are more excellent." How does the Jew know that these "things" are more excellent? Paul answers it immediately "being instructed out of the law" as to what "things" are "more excellent" or what is the revealed will of God. It is "THESE THINGS" that form the basis of his boast in the day of judgement. It is "THESE THINGS" that he rests upon in the day of judgement. There is no circular reasoning here. It does not take much common sense to know that those "THINGS" which are "HIS WILL" that God APPROVES revealed "OUT OF THE LAW" are what the Jew observes and practices or else he has nothing to REST upon in the day of judgement and nothing to "boast" of in the day of judgement. These are "the deeds" or "the works" approved by the law. No circular reasoning here - JUST COMMON SENSE!

Indeed, in your perverted paraphrase of Pauls' words in Romans 2:17-24 you admit Paul is acknowledging that the jew is here asserting justification by doing the works of the law and I quote:

Listen Mr. Jew – you think that salvation is limited to those who do the works of the Law of Moses.

So, there is no circular reasoning as you admit the truth of my interpetation by your own mouth.

However, your perverted paraphase adds to Paul's words in Romans 2:17-24 something HE NEVER SAID. You add your perverted doctrine to his words. You go on to admit that the Jew failed to observe the works of the law just as Paul states in Romans 3:9-18. You say,

Well, do you even keep the Law of Moses yourself – do you scrupulously neither steal, nor commit adultery, nor worship idols? As I have just said in verses 6 and following, there will indeed be coming works judgement with eternal life at stake, so do not be complacent – if you do not keep the Law, you may well not pass that judgement[/I]

Now this is circular reasoning. You assert a doctrine in verse 6-8 that is the issue of debate between us and then READ IT BACK INTO verses 17-24 as though it has been proved, which it has not, AND reinterpret verses 17-24 to make it fit - THAT IS CIRCULAR REASONING and a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT. You are the one who is guilty, not I.

Indeed, what Pauls says in Romans 3:17-3:8 is that the Jews DISOBEY the law and that is the very cause (Rom. 3:9-18) NO FLESH including JEWISH FLESH can never be justified by the works of the Law or what the law APPROVES to be "HIS WILL" and my friend "bad" works cannot fit that bill.

Your interpretation is based completely upon circular reasoning. Your responses are twisted and based completely upon eisgesis not exegesis and your errors are simply leading to greater and more serious errors.


[/COLOR];

You argument is circular - you have no actual case that the Jew rests in his obedience to the Law as a ladder of good works that leads to ultimate justification. You discount, without actual justification, the possibility that the Jew is resting in the law in the sense of the law being an "ethnic marker" - only Jews "do the works" of the Law.

Now matter how much you "yell" the phrase "being instructed out of the Law" does not change the fact that Paul can be legitimately read as scolding the Jew for his hypocrisy in thinking that he (the Jew) will be justified by being part of the ethnic group that is marked out by the Law of Moses when it turns out that this Jew cannot even keep the Law of Moses.

Bottom line: There is really no argument here that Paul is speaking out against a Jewish belief that "good works save". And in fact, the emphasis on the impartiality of God in respect to the Jew / Gentile split shows that Paul is indeed scolding the Jew for a belief that ethnic privilege saves.

 

[targus]

God works with him until he's fully integrated from being a sinner to the Word of God. The sinful flesh of this new saint died to the world and is now in total obedience to the Word of God and not under the law anymore. Now you can see the difference between a saint being born of God through justification and a sinner being saved by the grace of God.

I experienced becoming a sinless saint so I know this process very well.

God bless you,
Brad

When you say that you are a "sinless saint" do you mean that God has forgiven all your sins - past, present and future - so that in God's eyes you are sinless?

Or are you saying that you do not sin anymore - and are therefore "a sinless saint"?

 

[The Word]

When you say that you are a "sinless saint" do you mean that God has forgiven all your sins - past, present and future - so that in God's eyes you are sinless?

Or are you saying that you do not sin anymore - and are therefore "a sinless saint"?

I'm totally sinless and I'll never sin again for the rest of eternity. It took God 29 years of giving me commands to obey to get me sinless on June 14,2008. Now I preach the gospel that delivers sinners from all their sins and into the Kingdom of God. This is the same gospel Jesus and the all the other saints preached until they were killed.

 

[The Word]

Sorry, my deceived friend but physical death is not the full payment for sin.

Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You don't understand the scriptures and neither could the Jews when Jesus came preaching the gospel. The lake of fire is when the earth's crust is melted and all the rest of the sinful flesh that's living will die during this event. Everything will be melted in this hot lava.

The first death is a spiritual death that all sinners are born with and those who obey the spoken Word, the prophets, Jesus and us saints, come spiritually alive which means they were given faith by God. We were created as the Word of God and that's why we're known as brothers in Christ. We are one in spirit but live in many bodies. We become spiritually alive and when we die in the flesh, we are in the first resurrection, which means we're already the Word of God and have been ever since we were created together in the very beginning.

We will be the first to wake up in new immortal bodies in paradise after the earth is reformed and is ready for us. We need to establish a new vocabulary and language before the former sinners are reborn starting with a new Adam and Eve. All of God's creation will get new bodies and live for eternity in paradise. Not one of his created beings will end up in your pagan belief of hell.

 

[Amy.G]

You don't understand the scriptures and neither could the Jews when Jesus came preaching the gospel. The lake of fire is when the earth's crust is melted and all the rest of the sinful flesh that's living will die during this event. Everything will be melted in this hot lava.

The first death is a spiritual death that all sinners are born with and those who obey the spoken Word, the prophets, Jesus and us saints, come spiritually alive which means they were given faith by God. We were created as the Word of God and that's why we're known as brothers in Christ. We are one in spirit but live in many bodies. We become spiritually alive and when we die in the flesh, we are in the first resurrection, which means we're already the Word of God and have been ever since we were created together in the very beginning.

We will be the first to wake up in new immortal bodies in paradise after the earth is reformed and is ready for us. We need to establish a new vocabulary and language before the former sinners are reborn starting with a new Adam and Eve. All of God's creation will get new bodies and live for eternity in paradise. Not one of his created beings will end up in your pagan belief of hell.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like jibberish to me. That's not what my Bible teaches. Did you come up with this on your own?

 

[Dr. Walter]

We were created as the Word of God and that's why we're known as brothers in Christ. We are one in spirit but live in many bodies. We become spiritually alive and when we die in the flesh, we are in the first resurrection, which means we're already the Word of God and have been ever since we were created together in the very beginning.

Do you believe that Jesus existed as "the Word of God" prior to his incarnation and is the eternal Second Person of the Triune Godhead?

 

[moral necessity]

I'm totally sinless and I'll never sin again for the rest of eternity. It took God 29 years of giving me commands to obey to get me sinless on June 14,2008. Now I preach the gospel that delivers sinners from all their sins and into the Kingdom of God. This is the same gospel Jesus and the all the other saints preached until they were killed.

I John 1:8 - "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Ecc. 7:20 - "For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin."

Are you sure you're defining "sin" in the strict sense of the word, and not just as external behavior? Sin involves not only actions, but also the impulses and stirrings within us that lead up to the action. Saying "no" to the action alone does not count. We must not even tend towards any evil in our thoughts and desires. They must not tend towards sin in even the slightest degree. And, the opposite is also true. We must tend towards only the good with every fiber of our being. If one fiber is out of line, if one impulse is not tending towards love towards every creature (friends or enemies), tending towards desiring only God's will, hungering and thirsting only for what he wants for himself...if one fiber is gravitating the other way, then it is sin. Deut.6:5 - "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

Blessings and prayers!

 

[Dr. Walter]

You don't understand the scriptures and neither could the Jews when Jesus came preaching the gospel. The lake of fire is when the earth's crust is melted and all the rest of the sinful flesh that's living will die during this event. Everything will be melted in this hot lava.

The first death is a spiritual death that all sinners are born with and those who obey the spoken Word, the prophets, Jesus and us saints, come spiritually alive which means they were given faith by God. We were created as the Word of God and that's why we're known as brothers in Christ. We are one in spirit but live in many bodies. We become spiritually alive and when we die in the flesh, we are in the first resurrection, which means we're already the Word of God and have been ever since we were created together in the very beginning.

We will be the first to wake up in new immortal bodies in paradise after the earth is reformed and is ready for us. We need to establish a new vocabulary and language before the former sinners are reborn starting with a new Adam and Eve. All of God's creation will get new bodies and live for eternity in paradise. Not one of his created beings will end up in your pagan belief of hell.

This guy thinks he is the incarnate Word of God and when he physically dies the world will end. He presents himself as the last hope for humanity to listen to the truth. His teaching is a form of gnosticism that the apostles condemned as "anti-christ"

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm afraid The Word is not going to be with us very long. But while he's here, he surely knows how to yank our chains.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Greek term translated "apostasy" (apostasia) has two possible meanings. It can mean "stand away" in the sense of taking a stand against or it can mean "departure out of."

Those who take the former view "stand away" or "stand against" note that the preposition "apo" (away from) is the suffix rather than "ek" (out of).

There are those who by PROFESSION alone are WITHIN Christendom and when they depart OUT OF many take a STAND AGAINST the gospel by adopting "another gospel" or gospel of works. In that sense it is an Apostate Gospel or a gospel that STANDS AGAINST the true gospel by apostates or those who take a STAND AGAINST the truth.

In regard to saved people, they do not depart "out of" faith/salvation but they can be deceived and depart "away FROM" the faith or the body of apostolic doctrine. I Timothy 4:1 and "the faith" is in direct contrast with "doctrines of demons" and therefore is referring to a departure from sound doctrine.

ah then it would be better titled Apostate Christians' gospel of works. or you still have the misnomer of the title.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What I am proposing does not have the implication you suggest. Let me explain.

1. God chose Israel to be the means by which the Adamic sin problem is dealt with for all mankind;

2. Israel did not fulfill its covenantal role in respect to item (1);

3. Jesus comes and acts on Israel's behalf, and the problem of sin is dealt with for all mankind.

So Jesus can indeed be obedient to Israel's vocation with implications for the entire world.

Andre this was skipped over but it is a valid point.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Andre,

I have repeatedly told you that one error only leads to another error and now you top them all.

Israel was not chosen to be our redeemer. That is what it takes to deal with the Adamic sin - to be our redeemer. You place Christ as plan C as Adam was plan A -failure; and Israel plan B - failure; and now Christ plan C.

What you are developing is another CULT and your the CULTIC leader with this bizzare and completely stupid theory.

Actually he has shown Jesus as plan A. Man and Israel failed their side of the covenant. What conserns me is people place Judaism as plan A and there is a paranthetical period of Christianity which God only felt obligated to do and then get back to judaism. This I find to be abhorent. Christianity is the new Israel. And the Jews will be saved by coming into the body of Christ not the body of christ becoming Jewish.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Andre this was skipped over but it is a valid point

1. God chose Israel to be the means by which the Adamic sin problem is dealt with for all mankind;

2. Israel did not fulfill its covenantal role in respect to item (1);

3. Jesus comes and acts on Israel's behalf, and the problem of sin is dealt with for all mankind.

So Jesus can indeed be obedient to Israel's vocation with implications for the entire world..

This is not a valid point!

First, because the scripture clearly says that the law was never given to provide life.

Second because the scripture cleary states that "no flesh" can be justified by the law.

Third, because the Scriptures clearly says that it was "impossible" that the blood of bulls and goats could remit sin an NEVER could take away sin.

Fourth, because the Scriptures clearly say that the law was a "shadow" and NEVER was "the very image."

Fifth, Jesus did not come to act in Israel's behalf but came as the "SECOND ADAM" not the "second Moses."

Sixth, The gospel of salvation has been the same since Eden (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2).

Seventh, this is just circular reasoning. The theory assumes the correctness of what Andre is trying to prove - justification by works.

Hence, God had no intention of dealing with Sin of mankind throguh through Israel but with the "seed" of the woman (Gen. 3:15) the seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:16-17).

 

[Dr. Walter]

ah then it would be better titled Apostate Christians' gospel of works. or you still have the misnomer of the title.

It is an "apostate gospel of works" as it is a false gospel in opposition (standing against) to the truth. Those who teach and preach it are "accursed." It is the gospel of justification by good works.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is an "apostate gospel of works" as it is a false gospel in opposition (standing against) to the truth. Those who teach and preach it are "accursed." It is the gospel of justification by good works.

Then the title should be anti - gospel of works. Apostate can only apply to that with the ability to apostate which by definition require a prior non apostate sense. The gospel which you defened has nothing in common with a gospel of works therefore fospel of works can not be apostate but antithetical to the gospel.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Then the title should be anti - gospel of works. Apostate can only apply to that with the ability to apostate which by definition require a prior non apostate sense. The gospel which you defened has nothing in common with a gospel of works therefore fospel of works can not be apostate but antithetical to the gospel.

The term "apostate" can mean to "oppose" or "stand against" (apo + istami) the truth. Those Christians who depart from "the faith" are in opposition to the faith. Those false professors who come "out of" professed Christianity and turn against Christ are in opposition to "the faith." The accursed gospel is a gospel in opposition to the true gospel.

Why are you quibbling over a word. You should be more concerned about the gospel of Jesus Christ than defending a description of the "accursed" gospel. You want to change the label? Fine! But that does not change the content of the false gospel as a gospel of justification by good works.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is not a valid point!

actually it is

First, because the scripture clearly says that the law was never given to provide life.

Is this true? Hmmm. Deut 4:1

Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live

And even David asked to have his live perserved by God's laws Psalm 119:156

Your compassion is great, O LORD; preserve my life according to your laws

So, I'm not sure what you've said is entirely true.

Second because the scripture cleary states that "no flesh" can be justified by the law.

And nothing in this statement by Andre states otherwise. Red herring that.

Third, because the Scriptures clearly says that it was "impossible" that the blood of bulls and goats could remit sin an NEVER could take away sin.

And another Red Herring since Andre never suggested that either. The sacrifice of animals is a foreshadowing of Christ.

Fourth, because the Scriptures clearly say that the law was a "shadow" and NEVER was "the very image."

Just as I've said. You tend to put words in other peoples mouths. Not a good habit that.

Fifth, Jesus did not come to act in Israel's behalf but came as the "SECOND ADAM" not the "second Moses."

He did act in Israel's behalf as he did all men. You believe he only acted on the behalf of the elect. I find that to be more in line with your accusation. However, Jesus being the Messiah brought about the eschatology of the Jews. Judaism has its consumation. Life is now found in Christianity. Jesus never the less fufilled the law and thus the "foreshadowing of Christ" is in effect back to the institution of Israel as well as the consumation of all things.

Sixth, The gospel of salvation has been the same since Eden (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2).

Certainly there are covental periods. But Jesus was crucified before the world was made.

Seventh, this is just circular reasoning. The theory assumes the correctness of what Andre is trying to prove - justification by works.

I think you mistate Andre's position. But I may be corrected here. I think you need to define what you mean by salvation and justification. Certainly Paul say we are saved unto good works.

Hence, God had no intention of dealing with Sin of mankind throguh through Israel but with the "seed" of the woman (Gen. 3:15) the seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:16-17).

I don't think Andre contradicted this point. God deals with sin through the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The term "apostate" can mean to "oppose" or "stand against" (apo + istami) the truth. Those Christians who depart from "the faith" are in opposition to the faith. Those false professors who come "out of" professed Christianity and turn against Christ are in opposition to "the faith." The accursed gospel is a gospel in opposition to the true gospel.

Why are you quibbling over a word. You should be more concerned about the gospel of Jesus Christ than defending a description of the "accursed" gospel. You want to change the label? Fine! But that does not change the content of the false gospel as a gospel of justification by good works.

Because Dr. Walter I enjoy yanking your chain.

 

[Dr. Walter]

actually it is

Is this true? Hmmm. Deut 4:1 And even David asked to have his live perserved by God's laws Psalm 119:156 So, I'm not sure what you've said is entirely true.

Unbelievable! Eternal life by works is conditioned by "CONTINUANCE" in keeping every point (James 2:10) and that is your problem and that is why Paul says

.... for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Reread what Paul says above! Verse 22 is set in CONTRAST to verse 21. This is not either/or but verse 21 negates life coming through good works as defined by the law. It negates it because it is not possible that YOU or anyone else can continue in all points of the law but that is exactly what the law demands to obtain justification according to its standard of righteousness - "be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect" or "why call me good, there is NONE GOOD but ONE and that is God."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Unbelievable! Eternal life by works is conditioned by "CONTINUANCE" in keeping every point (James 2:10) and that is your problem and that is why Paul says

.... for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Reread what Paul says above! Verse 22 is set in CONTRAST to verse 21. This is not either/or but verse 21 negates life coming through good works as defined by the law. It negates it because it is not possible that YOU or anyone else can continue in all points of the law but that is exactly what the law demands to obtain justification according to its standard of righteousness - "be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect" or "why call me good, there is NONE GOOD but ONE and that is God."

My problem is you said the bible never says and I show you where it does say. You tend to add... whats the word... conditions... after the fact. So you say the bible never said. But I show you where it does say and then you add a condition. Not good.