The Apostle Peter on the Second Coming of Our LORD

[revmwc]

Revelation 20 says NOTHING about the false teaching of the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church. Neither does it teach that the Church for which Jesus Christ shed HIS blood is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel! The Bible does not teach error. Darby and his disciples have and do!

Why are you so hung up on saying the church age was a parenthesis? I have said there is no parenthesis the church was in God's plan before HE created Adam and Eve. He knew Adam and Eve would disobey and made a plan for man's salvation. He knew those who would believe on Jesus the Savior, that O.T. believer looking forward the Dispensation of Grace believer looking back to the savior who has come. God planned for the salvation of mankind, planned to send Jesus to die for sinners. Planned for Christ to be rejected and die on the cross, planned to remove custody of scripture and the plan of salvation from Israel and place it in the custody of the New Testament Church. Planned for the redemption of cursed earth by means of the Tribulation. Planned on removing the Bride before the Tribulation began. Planned for the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation and the resurrection of the Tribulation saints. Planned on Christ reigning for 1000 years and the Saints of all ages to sit on thrones with Him. Planned for satan to be bound for 1000 years. Planned for the resurrection of the dead at the end of the 1000 years and then He planned to renovate the earth with fervent heat. All this was in God's plan and there was NO Parenthesis as you continue to proclaim that there is.

God the Father Planned it, God the Son carried it out and God the Holy Spirit revealed it all when their time came to do so.

Why do you insist that there was a Parenthesis?

 

[OldRegular]

I don't know who Darby and disciples are. Do you? If they are on this board would you care to list them by name? Be careful about false accusations, they could land you in trouble.
And if you really don't know any, then stop with all the unnecessary bombastic rhetoric.

Any pre-trib-dispensationalist is a follower of the doctrine invented by John Nelson Darby. I have posted numerous times the remarks of pre-trib-dispensational scholar Dr. Thomas Ice regarding John Nelson Darby as the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism. That is indisputable.

You have called me a disciple of Calvin and through him Augustine, mimicing the accusations of Darrell C that I am Catholic. However, I cannot threaten you because you are a moderator and I am not.

Actually I am Catholic in that I believe in the universal invisible Church. I am just not Roman Catholic. A world of difference except to some who are not sufficiently learned to understand.

 

[revmwc]

Anyone who attempts to interpret Revelation literally is doomed to failure.

"A proper interpretation of the Book of Revelation requires an understanding of the literary form called apocalyptic literature? The word apocalyptic comes from apocalypse and is used to describe one literary form used in the book of Revelation. Ray Frank Robbins, a former professor at the New Orleans Baptist Seminary, describes apocalyptic literature, as follows[Revelation: Three Viewpoints, G. R. Beasley-Murray, Herschel H. Hobbs, Ray Frank Robbins.]:



Indeed the Book of Revelation is both apocalyptic and prophetic. There are similar books [or parts of books] in the Old Testament, notably Daniel and Ezekiel. Matthew 24-25, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are similar writings in the New Testament. Philip Edgcumbe Hughes in his commentary on the Book of Revelation writes specifically, though eloquently, of the apocalyptic language used in Revelation as follows [Introduction, page 7ff].



We see that apocalyptic writing, which conveys the truth of God’s direct intervention in history as necessary, is not only a source of revelation to the ‘true believer’ but also a source of great spiritual nourishment."

"Apocalypse" (ἀποκάλυψις) is a Greek word meaning "revelation", "an unveiling or unfolding of things not previously known and which could not be known apart from the unveiling" Jesus unveiled the rest of the story with Revelation. He gave us the prophetic phases of the church in the 1st three chapters. Then the call come up hither which the Saints of that time understood would be the call of the church, you that is how apcolyptic literature does, it conveys how those in that time would understand it. The church at Ephesus would understand that the call come up hither with the trumpet would be the call of the church. Then the reason for the call to John I will shew thee things which must be hereafter that is show the things that have not been unveiled that is apocalypse.

Then we are shown the Tribulation and it is identified as the wrath of God in Revelation 6:17 that is apocalyptic literature it reveals or unveils previously unknown truths and prophetic events. The exact things John wrote about those early church believers understood perfectly and we need to see the writing as how they would have understood it. What did they know?
Paul said the dead would rise first and those who were alive would go next. They knew the church would be caught up and meet Christ in the clouds and then revelation 4:1 says the things coming after the rapture of the church would be shown. Perfect use of apocalyptic genre'

 

[OldRegular]

"Apocalypse" (ἀποκάλυψις) is a Greek word meaning "revelation", "an unveiling or unfolding of things not previously known and which could not be known apart from the unveiling" Jesus unveiled the rest of the story with Revelation. He gave us the prophetic phases of the church in the 1st three chapters. Then the call come up hither which the Saints of that time understood would be the call of the church, you that is how apcolyptic literature does, it conveys how those in that time would understand it. The church at Ephesus would understand that the call come up hither with the trumpet would be the call of the church. Then the reason for the call to John I will shew thee things which must be hereafter that is show the things that have not been unveiled that is apocalypse.

Then we are shown the Tribulation and it is identified as the wrath of God in Revelation 6:17 that is apocalyptic literature it reveals or unveils previously unknown truths and prophetic events. The exact things John wrote about those early church believers understood perfectly and we need to see the writing as how they would have understood it. What did they know?
Paul said the dead would rise first and those who were alive would go next. They knew the church would be caught up and meet Christ in the clouds and then revelation 4:1 says the things coming after the rapture of the church would be shown. Perfect use of apocalyptic genre'

You will never understand the book of Revelation as long as you try to make it fit the false doctrine of pre-trib-dispensationalism!

 

[revmwc]

You will never understand the book of Revelation as long as you try to make it fit the false doctrine of pre-trib-dispensationalism!

I followed the Apocalypitic genre' and wikth that one has to understand the unveiling of events as the Christians as those of those of A.D. 1st century would have understood it that is how that genre is used according to those things I have read about it.

The church at Ephesus was founded by Paul and Paul had taught that the church would be caught away, that the dead would rise first and the living would follow. They would meet Christ in the air. That as he wrote in Corinthians we would all be changed from corruptible to incorruptable.

Revelation 4:1 says Jesus was going to show John the things that must come, that would be the unveiling of new prophecy. They would have understood that the catching away took place with the sound of a trumpet and voice just as 1st Thessalonians says.

Using the Apocalyptic genre just helps understand the things yet to come from the things they might not have known or understand. Jesus had taught of a Great Tribulation to come. Now they understood they would be saved from its wrath as Paul had shown and as Jesus now promised in Revelation 3:10.

Using that form of literature should open the mind of all to see the Pre-Trib Rapture of even more clearly. Then see the redemption of all creation seen with the scroll of the kinsman redeemer being unsealed and the horsemen, vials and plagues as well as the trumpets showing the redemption of earth must come through tribulation.

the Jews knew all about the scroll of redemption and knew it had to be unsealed by the near kinsman redeemer who was worthy and they saw that happen in Chapter 4 and 5 of revelation, the kinsman redeemer coming forth who was the Lamb Jesus.

 

[DHK]

Any pre-trib-dispensationalist is a follower of the doctrine invented by John Nelson Darby. I have posted numerous times the remarks of pre-trib-dispensational scholar Dr. Thomas Ice regarding John Nelson Darby as the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism. That is indisputable.

You have called me a disciple of Calvin and through him Augustine, mimicing the accusations of Darrell C that I am Catholic. However, I cannot threaten you because you are a moderator and I am not.

Actually I am Catholic in that I believe in the universal invisible Church. I am just not Roman Catholic. A world of difference except to some who are not sufficiently learned to understand.

Here is the difference.
You deny the name Calvin, perhaps because of the stigma attached, but yet you believe in its tenets and are right there to defend and articulate its tenets at every opportunity. You are one of the most vocal on the board.
Thus the name "Augustinian" is very apt, for that is where Calvinism originated.

Dispensationalism did not originate from Darby. That has been proven to you over and over again. Even the ECF were dispensationalists. So was Isaac Watts. But you don't care about the history of dispensationalism. You are fixated upon one person out of its entire history--Darby, and then to add injury to insult you quote these so-called authorities of yours, most of whom we have never heard, and some of whom we have never heard, and arrogantly say: They said it, that finalizes it; case closed--as if your argument is now over and there is nothing more to say.
It actually makes you look ignorant for you don't have a clue what any of us believe. You just assume you do.
1. It appears that none of us have read Darby, and we don't believe as he does.
2. Not all of us have read your "authorities" and they don't matter to us.
3. Our authority is the word of God. That is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice and that is what you are ignoring. When one of us does make a point you refer back to Darby in caustic and sarcastic remarks unable to refute the point being made. In that way you lose credibility.
4. You can't debate a dispensationalist because you are simply a "Darby-attacker." You are so much fixated on that one thing you cannot debate any person rationally who believes in dispensations.

You are close to Augustinianism. But none of us are close to Darbyism. If it is, it is by coincidence, and that is all.
By studying Calvinism, you study Augustine for he constantly quotes Augustine.
I have never studied Darby or anyone that quotes him.

There is a big difference.

 

[OldRegular]

Dispensationalism did not originate from Darby. That has been proven to you over and over again.

And I have proven to you over and over that pre-rib-dispensationalism did originate with Darby. You just won't accept that fact claiming that you got it all from the Bible. Well it is not in the Bible!

Even the ECF were dispensationalists. So was Isaac Watts. But you don't care about the history of dispensationalism.

They may have mentioned dispensations but that is a far cry from the pre-trib-dispensationalism that John Nelson Darby got from Isaiah 32!

You are fixated upon one person out of its entire history--Darby, and then to add injury to insult you quote these so-called authorities of yours, most of whom we have never heard, and some of whom we have never heard, and arrogantly say: They said it, that finalizes it; case closed--as if your argument is now over and there is nothing more to say.
It actually makes you look ignorant for you don't have a clue what any of us believe. You just assume you do.
1. It appears that none of us have read Darby, and we don't believe as he does.

For people who don't believe what Darby dreamed up about the pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church you folks do a good imitation!

2. Not all of us have read your "authorities" and they don't matter to us.
3. Our authority is the word of God. That is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice and that is what you are ignoring. When one of us does make a point you refer back to Darby in caustic and sarcastic remarks unable to refute the point being made. In that way you lose credibility.
4. You can't debate a dispensationalist because you are simply a "Darby-attacker." You are so much fixated on that one thing you cannot debate any person rationally who believes in dispensations.

You nor anyone else have presented Scripture that teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the church. You simply read the pre-trib-rapture into all the Scripture you present. When I present a passage that teaches a general resurrection taken at "face value" as Ryrie states I am not reading my doctrine into it. John 5:28, 29 in case you want to check it out. To the contrary you separate "the hour" into two periods 1007 years apart. When I present Scripture showing Jesus Christ will raise believers on the LAST DAY you insist there are multiple last days!

You are close to Augustinianism. But none of us are close to Darbyism. If it is, it is by coincidence, and that is all.
By studying Calvinism, you study Augustine for he constantly quotes Augustine.
I have never studied Darby or anyone that quotes him.

There is a big difference.

I have never studied Calvin or Augustine. But I can show from Scripture that the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace are true. You can't do that with pre-trib-dispensationalism and its "parenthesis" Church! Furthermore, you can try to separate yourself from Darby but you are joined at the hip by the same doctrine!

You nor anyone else has shown anything that contradicts the OP and the teaching of Peter concerning the return of Jesus Christ. The passage from Peter shows clearly that the pre-trib doctrine is false.

 

[DHK]

And I have proven to you over and over that pre-rib-dispensationalism did originate with Darby. You just won't accept that fact claiming that you got it all from the Bible. Well it is not in the Bible!

Repeating a false statement over and over does not make it true.
No, you haven't proven anything. You simply repeat a false statement repeatedly.
Perhaps it is the other way around, as Revm and others have actually shown you. You just refuse the evidence that they give you. You close your eyes and say: "NO"

They may have mentioned dispensations but that is a far cry from the pre-trib-dispensationalism that John Nelson Darby got from Isaiah 32!

If he got it from Isa.32, I wouldn't know it. That is not where I find it. You know more about Darby's theology than I do. I got my dispensational theology from the Bible. I never studied Darby. The word (dispensation) is mentioned in the Bible (though Calvin, Augustine, TULIP are not).

For people who don't believe what Darby dreamed up about the pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church you folks do a good imitation!

The ECF believed in a rapture. They were called Chiliasts.
In the grand scheme of things we place the rapture at a slightly different place than they do, but we both are pre-millennialists. Some of them may have been pre-trib. However, the rapture certainly was one of their tenets.

You nor anyone else have presented Scripture that teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the church. You simply read the pre-trib-rapture into all the Scripture you present.

Perhaps you deny the scripture that is presented to you. You don't want to believe that these verses speak about the rapture simply because of your preconceived bias.

When I present a passage that teaches a general resurrection taken at "face value" as Ryrie states I am not reading my doctrine into it. John 5:28, 29 in case you want to check it out.

Sure you are reading your doctrine into it. Commentary after commentary, and poster after poster has shown you that that passage does not need to be confined to one resurrection. You just want it to read that way. It is simply your opinion that you are standing on, and that is all.

To the contrary you separate "the hour" into two periods 1007 years apart. When I present Scripture showing Jesus Christ will raise believers on the LAST DAY you insist there are multiple last days!

And yet when the number "thousand" is used multiple times in Revelation 20 you deny that it means what it says. Allegory is all over the place.

I have never studied Calvin or Augustine. But I can show from Scripture that the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace are true. You can't do that with pre-trib-dispensationalism and its "parenthesis" Church! Furthermore, you can try to separate yourself from Darby but you are joined at the hip by the same doctrine!

Show me in any post where I have ever admitted to a "parenthesis" Church.
Don't accuse me of believing things I don't believe. But that demonstrates my point of you assuming to know what we believe because you have read your authorities whether it be Darby, Ice, Scofield, or Ryrie. Therefore you know what we believe. That is false. And that is where your debating skills fail. We study the Bible not your reference materials.

You nor anyone else has shown anything that contradicts the OP and the teaching of Peter concerning the return of Jesus Christ. The passage from Peter shows clearly that the pre-trib doctrine is false.

Now how could that be?
Peter says that Christ will come as a thief in the night when no one is expecting him. That sounds like the rapture to me.

If he comes after the Tribulation people will have at least a general sense of his coming (if they are acquainted with the Bible), for the Tribulation lasts only a total of 7 years. They won't know exactly the time of his coming, but will have a sense of it, because then he will come in his glory, the glory of His Father, with all the holy angels, with the armies of heaven, to defeat the enemies of the Jews, to engage in battle (though it may be quick and decisive), and every eye shall see him, and then His Millennial Kingdom shall be established.

Now that doesn't sound like one coming as a thief in the night.

 

[beameup]

And all this time you pre-trib-dispensationalists have been saying that Jesus Christ comes at the beginning of the millennium. Now you say HE is coming again at the end of the millennium.

That is the problem when you make things up. You never can tell the same story twice! It changes however necessary to cover your previous false statements!

But I will give you credit, "beameup". None of the other Rapture Ready people have responded!

Where do you get "Jesus is coming to earth" from the phrase "day of the Lord"? It is simply a phrase describing God's supernatural intervention. Has nothing necessarily to do with "Jesus is coming to the earth".

Besides, Peter's sermon to the Jews in Acts 3 talks of the "restoration" of the earth, not the destruction of it. Yes, Jesus will "heal the earth" following the Great Tribulation, and his throne will be in Jerusalem among his Hebrew brethren. The O.T. is full of such promises.

 

[OldRegular]

Strange how the Rapture Ready folks have ignored the Scripture presented in the OP!

 

[revmwc]

Strange how the Rapture Ready folks have ignored the Scripture presented in the OP!

You must have missed post 4 I'll skip the largest portion and repost the final portion:

Peter is indeed speaking of the second coming which will take place a the end of the Tribulation seen in Revelation 19 and then following the 1000 reign as laid out in Revelation 20 we see the New Heaven and the New Earth, Jesus makes it perfectly clear in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

You must have missed post 4 I'll skip the largest portion and repost the final portion:

Peter is indeed speaking of the second coming which will take place a the end of the Tribulation seen in Revelation 19 and then following the 1000 reign as laid out in Revelation 20 we see the New Heaven and the New Earth, Jesus makes it perfectly clear in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Actually your post 4 was not a response to the passage of Scripture presented in the OP but a response to my remarks to beameup! Respond to the following repeat of the OP!

2 Peter 3:1-14
1. This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2. That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Now obviously Peter is talking about the Second Coming since he states: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. The new heavens and new earth follows the Second Coming!

Obviously Peter is NOT talking about the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church since that is supposedly done in secret.

If the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church had happened in the previous 7 years or less Peter could not have made the following statement: Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

[revmwc]

I recall. That was really a nonresponse it was so incredibly wrong!

You said noone responded but I did you may not agree but that is how I see it.

 

[OldRegular]

You must have missed post 4 I'll skip the largest portion and repost the final portion:

Peter is indeed speaking of the second coming which will take place a the end of the Tribulation seen in Revelation 19 and then following the 1000 reign as laid out in Revelation 20 we see the New Heaven and the New Earth, Jesus makes it perfectly clear in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

You said noone responded but I did you may not agree but that is how I see it.

You are obviously wrong. As I stated in the OP:

If the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church had happened in the previous 7 years or less Peter could not have made the following statement: Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Now you are telling me the people have seen millions of people suddenly disappearing, graves being opened, planes falling out of the sky, cars without drivers followed by "seven years of hell on earth" and they will say:

Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

...........................................................................................:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

 

[revmwc]

You are obviously wrong. As I stated in the OP:



Now you are telling me the people have seen millions of people suddenly disappearing, graves being opened, planes falling out of the sky, cars without drivers followed by "seven years of hell on earth" and they will say:

...........................................................................................:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

You stated "Now obviously Peter is talking about the Second Coming since he states: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. The new heavens and new earth follows the Second Coming!"

Further you said:
"Obviously Peter is NOT talking about the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church since that is supposedly done in secret."

If the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church had happened in the previous 7 years or less Peter could not have made the following statement: Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

To which I responded:

Peter is indeed speaking of the second coming which will take place a the end of the Tribulation seen in Revelation 19 and then following the 1000 reign as laid out in Revelation 20 we see the New Heaven and the New Earth, Jesus makes it perfectly clear in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Peter point was that until Christ returns for His church things remain the same as they were from creation. Man will marry and give in marriage, man will do evil continually until Christ comes. The Pre-Trib Rapture was addressed because the Holy Spirit that is the promise of His coming. There will be scoffers who will say Christ is not coming as He promised.
Verse 3. "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

They say where is the promised rapture that is the promise of His coming
Peter says "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old" they refuse to see the truth about His imment return. but God has had this planned since before the earth came out of water. He has had this planned since before the flood

Then we see,
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

When is that judgment during the Tribulation. That is the church will be called out as Christ Promised. Then Gods Wrath will begin as we see in Revelation 6:17.

Then we see this:
8. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Here we see God's plan revealed to Peter and by Peter to us. God gave mankind 7000 years to be upon this earth. Nearly 6000 has taken place since the creation. Everything has remained the same since the fall with a few minor changes. Man was given one week of 1000 years per day.
The final week we see in Revelation 20 as the 1000 year Kingdom of Christ.
Before that though as Peter stated "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" not a 1000 year day but the 7 year tribulation that Christ spoke of and said:

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

A short period of time when the Holy Spirit has been removed and all of god's protection upon the Earth is removed. God's judgment is upon the earth for the redemption of all creation.

Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

And
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This of course shows God wants each and everyone saved it is His divine will. But not all will be saved because in His permissive will He allowed mankind volition to chose to accept Christ or Reject Christ.

10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,

He will return at the end of the Great Tribulation and He will come swiftly upon the inhabitants of the earth. The unholy trinity is gathered to fight against Him and the army with Him Revelation 19 Tells us.

They are defeated and Christ rules in the Kingdom and then,
10b, "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

His point since all this will burn up then we need to be digilently seeking to reacjh all of mankind because God is long suffering to mankind not willing that any should perish but all mankind should come to repentance.

Many bible scholars who teach the tribulation teach that is someone heard the word this side of the Tribulation they will not be saved on the other. God says He wants all to be saved and I believe people will be saved during the Tribulation, because a great multitude is said to be saved as well as the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes listed.

We need to be digligent in our walk not seeking worldly things because all of this will burn up someday.

 

[OldRegular]

You stated "Now obviously Peter is talking about the Second Coming since he states: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. The new heavens and new earth follows the Second Coming!"

Further you said:
"Obviously Peter is NOT talking about the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church since that is supposedly done in secret."

If the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church had happened in the previous 7 years or less Peter could not have made the following statement: Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

To which I responded:

Peter is indeed speaking of the second coming which will take place a the end of the Tribulation seen in Revelation 19 and then following the 1000 reign as laid out in Revelation 20 we see the New Heaven and the New Earth, Jesus makes it perfectly clear in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Peter point was that until Christ returns for His church things remain the same as they were from creation. Man will marry and give in marriage, man will do evil continually until Christ comes. The Pre-Trib Rapture was addressed because the Holy Spirit that is the promise of His coming. There will be scoffers who will say Christ is not coming as He promised.
Verse 3. "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

They say where is the promised rapture that is the promise of His coming
Peter says "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old" they refuse to see the truth about His imment return. but God has had this planned since before the earth came out of water. He has had this planned since before the flood

Then we see,
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

When is that judgment during the Tribulation. That is the church will be called out as Christ Promised. Then Gods Wrath will begin as we see in Revelation 6:17.

Then we see this:
8. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Here we see God's plan revealed to Peter and by Peter to us. God gave mankind 7000 years to be upon this earth. Nearly 6000 has taken place since the creation. Everything has remained the same since the fall with a few minor changes. Man was given one week of 1000 years per day.
The final week we see in Revelation 20 as the 1000 year Kingdom of Christ.
Before that though as Peter stated "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" not a 1000 year day but the 7 year tribulation that Christ spoke of and said:

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

A short period of time when the Holy Spirit has been removed and all of god's protection upon the Earth is removed. God's judgment is upon the earth for the redemption of all creation.

Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

And
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This of course shows God wants each and everyone saved it is His divine will. But not all will be saved because in His permissive will He allowed mankind volition to chose to accept Christ or Reject Christ.

10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,

He will return at the end of the Great Tribulation and He will come swiftly upon the inhabitants of the earth. The unholy trinity is gathered to fight against Him and the army with Him Revelation 19 Tells us.

They are defeated and Christ rules in the Kingdom and then,
10b, "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

His point since all this will burn up then we need to be digilently seeking to reacjh all of mankind because God is long suffering to mankind not willing that any should perish but all mankind should come to repentance.

Many bible scholars who teach the tribulation teach that is someone heard the word this side of the Tribulation they will not be saved on the other. God says He wants all to be saved and I believe people will be saved during the Tribulation, because a great multitude is said to be saved as well as the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes listed.

We need to be digligent in our walk not seeking worldly things because all of this will burn up someday.

Peter's point is that the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the so-called "parenthesis" Church is fiction created by the mind of a convalescing John Nelson Darby; a false, pernicious doctrine which has seduced millions of people in this country, just as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism, and Christian Science have!

Yet you are still telling me the scoffers have seen millions of people suddenly disappearing, graves being opened, planes falling out of the sky, cars without drivers followed by "seven years of hell on earth" and they will say:

Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

...........................................................................................:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

 

[revmwc]

Peter's point is that the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the so-called "parenthesis" Church is fiction created by the mind of a convalescing John Nelson Darby; a false, pernicious doctrine which has seduced millions of people in this country, just as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism, and Christian Science have!

Yet you are still telling me the scoffers have seen millions of people suddenly disappearing, graves being opened, planes falling out of the sky, cars without drivers followed by "seven years of hell on earth" and they will say:

...........................................................................................:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

There you go back to your Parenthesis theory and not sure why you are soooo hung up on there being a parenthesis. I pray that God will change you mind concerning there being a Parenthesis!

No the scoffers are right now in this age before the folks are resurrected. Besides who says the graves open? It just says the dead rise first and in a ressurection body they can come out without the graves opening. Suddenly disappearing yes but the world can explain that away, the people were taken by aliens that is what we see in our society isn't it?

 

[OldRegular]

There you go back to your Parenthesis theory and not sure why you are soooo hung up on there being a parenthesis. I pray that God will change you mind concerning there being a Parenthesis!

No the scoffers are right now in this age before the folks are resurrected. Besides who says the graves open? It just says the dead rise first and in a ressurection body they can come out without the graves opening. Suddenly disappearing yes but the world can explain that away, the people were taken by aliens that is what we see in our society isn't it?

I haven't seen any aliens, perhaps you have. But it is irrational to insist that the scoffers that Peter mentioned would be doing so after:

millions of people suddenly disappearing, graves being opened, planes falling out of the sky, cars without drivers followed by "seven years of hell on earth".

But then the doctrine of the pre-trib-'snatching away" of the "parenthesis Church" is irrational!

I have posted on this Forum on several occasions that the leaders in the pre-trib-dispensational error teach the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church as an interruption in GOD's program for Israel! Many pre-trib-dispensationalists deny that doctrine but it is the consequence of the false doctrine of the pre-trib-'Snatching away" of the Church!

Following are remarks by Chafer and Ryrie. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Charles C. Ryrie is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary He is also the author of the Ryrie Study Bible.

"But for the Church intercalation -- which was wholly unforeseen and is wholly unrelated to any divine purpose which precedes it or which follows it. In fact, the new, hitherto unrevealed purpose of God in the outcalling of a heavenly people from Jews and Gentiles is so divergent with respect to the divine purpose toward Israel, which purpose preceded it and will yet follow it, that the term parenthetical, commonly employed to describe the new age-purpose, is inaccurate. A parenthetical portion sustains some direct or indirect relation to that which goes before or that which follows; but the present age-purpose is not thus related and therefore is more properly termed an intercalation" [emphasis added] (Chafer, Systematic Theology, 4:41; 5:348-349).

Charles Ryrie says the same thing: "Classic dispensationalists used the words 'parenthesis' or 'intercalation' to describe the distinctiveness of the church in relation to God's program for Israel. An intercalation is an insertion of a period of time in a calendar, and a parenthesis in one sense is defined as an interlude or interval (which in turn is defined as an intervening or interruptive period). So either or both words can be appropriately used to define the church age if one sees it as a distinct interlude in God's program for Israel (as clearly taught in Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks in 9:24-27)" (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.134).

http://twonewcovenants.com/covenant/covenant1.html

Then there are the remarks of Harry A. Ironside former pastor of the Moody Memorial Church in Chicago. The quote is from the preface to his book, The Great Parenthesis.

The contents of the present volume are really an enlargement of lectures on Bible prophecy that have been given at various conferences during the past few years. It was never convenient to have these stenographically reported at the time of their delivery, and so the substance of the addresses has been very carefully gone over and is now presented for the consideration of those who are interested in the revelation which the Spirit of God has given concerning things to come.It is the author's fervent conviction that the failure to understand what is revealed in Scripture concerning the Great Parenthesis between Messiah's rejection, with the consequent setting aside of Israel nationally, and the regathering of God's earthly people and recognition by the Lord in the last days, is the fundamental cause for many conflicting and unscriptural prophetic teachings. Once this parenthetical period is understood and the present work of God during this age is apprehended, the whole prophetic program unfolds with amazing clearness.

http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword-...t-parenthesis/

Charles C Ryrie writing in his book Dispensationalism regarding the Progressive Dispensational movement states on page 134.

Classic dispensationalism used the words parenthesis or intercalation to describe the distinctiveness of the church in relation to God's program for Israel. An intercalation is an insertion of a period of time in a calendar and a parenthesis in one sense is defined as an interlude or interval (which in turn is defined as an intervening or interruptive period). So either or both words can be appropriately used to define the church age if one sees it as a distinct interlude in God's program for Israel (as clearly taught in Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks in 9:24--27).

 

[revmwc]

I haven't seen any aliens, perhaps you have. But it is irrational to insist that the scoffers that Peter mentioned would be doing so after: But then the doctrine of the pre-trib-'snatching away" of the "parenthesis Church" is irrational!

I have posted on this Forum on several occasions that the leaders in the pre-trib-dispensational error teach the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church as an interruption in GOD's program for Israel! Many pre-trib-dispensationalists deny that doctrine but it is the consequence of the false doctrine of the pre-trib-'Snatching away" of the Church!

So let me understand you believe Pail taught a false doctrine? As well John and Jesus since we have seen scripture upon scripture where they have clearly taught that the church will be caught up. Yo continue to insist that you believe in a parenthesis church" can you show where in the Bible that church is because I have never seen it.

I have seen God's plan for the church and even Christ mentioned building His church through the Apostle Paters Faith.
There have been post after post even here showing early church groups in the early stages of the church who were looking for the immenent return of christ for his church.

Lets look at them again:

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) "was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just."

let's check another:

"Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

And another:

"Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

So here we see at least three early Christian leaders who were looking forward to Christ return before the Tribulation. From around A.D. 150 to A.D. 350 they felt the Lord's imminent return would come. It didn't and thus Peter said scoffers would say where is His coming and it continues today scoffers asking where is His coming to snatch the church away.

Seems you had some misinformation that Darby started it seems these three taught it and one was under the Apostle John and knew first hand what the Apocalyptic Literary writing by John meant and he took it literally.

 

[OldRegular]

So let me understand you believe Pail taught a false doctrine? As well John and Jesus since we have seen scripture upon scripture where they have clearly taught that the church will be caught up. Yo continue to insist that you believe in a parenthesis church" can you show where in the Bible that church is because I have never seen it.

I have seen God's plan for the church and even Christ mentioned building His church through the Apostle Paters Faith.
There have been post after post even here showing early church groups in the early stages of the church who were looking for the immenent return of christ for his church.

Lets look at them again:

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) "was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just."

let's check another:

"Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

And another:

"Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

So here we see at least three early Christian leaders who were looking forward to Christ return before the Tribulation. From around A.D. 150 to A.D. 350 they felt the Lord's imminent return would come. It didn't and thus Peter said scoffers would say where is His coming and it continues today scoffers asking where is His coming to snatch the church away.

Seems you had some misinformation that Darby started it seems these three taught it and one was under the Apostle John and knew first hand what the Apocalyptic Literary writing by John meant and he took it literally.

I believe the Bible. I can't say the same about you. You twist Scripture like a corkscrew!