The Apostles and the forgiving of sin.

[steaver]

We see Jesus Christ recognize the official authority of the Pharisees in Moses' seat despite their acting like children of the devil rather then of Abraham.

Only to the point that they taught the Scripture. Show me in the Scripture where Jesus said to listen to the Pharisees on any matter other than what was written in the Law. You cannot. If you want to compare Priest with the Pharisees then you must hold the Priest teaching to the WHOLE of what is written in the Scripture. Which leads us right back to Scripture being our final authority, it is the only way to distinguish truth from error.

 

[steaver]

Majority of folks in prison are your people.......... Does that mean hey maybe you should let us handle it so you guys can quit churning out criminals?

Lol. This is where you have no understanding of "born-again". Most criminals are not criminals while having been born-again. You have to realize that going to church or being a Catholic DOES NOT SAVE and DOES NOT mean one is saved. How about the KKK? Do you think they are saved because they SAY they are Christian and SAY they follow Jesus Christ? Please answer...

 

[steaver]

The numbers don't mean anything. If one of your folks abuse a child won't even make 2 seconds on national TV. A priest is always headlines.

If one of "our folks" abuses a child they are out of office! How about your abusers? Are they removed from a position of authority? That is the reason they get news coverage, it is always the cover up. If you guys would deal rightly with these people the news would go in your favor.

 

[steaver]

But fact remains Jesus put a group of folks in charge with binding and loosing.

How do you know who these people are? How do you know you are not confessing your sins to a Pedophile?

 

[Adonia]

If one of "our folks" abuses a child they are out of office! How about your abusers? Are they removed from a position of authority? That is the reason they get news coverage, it is always the cover up. If you guys would deal rightly with these people the news would go in your favor.

Yes, these days they are removed from the ministry and handed over to the appropriate legal authorities for earthly punishment. The Church has taken full responsibility, apologized to the victims, offered counseling and compensation for the horrors they endured.

 

[Adonia]

How do you know who these people are? How do you know you are not confessing your sins to a Pedophile?

How do you know you are not being led by Pastors who are sexual perverts? No one really knows who they are until they get caught, right?

 

[Adonia]

We even teach the children the same truths:

1 Stop! and let me tell you
what the Lord has done for me.
Stop! and let me tell you
what the Lord has done for me.
He forgave my sin and he saved my soul;
he cleansed my heart and he made me whole.
Stop! and let me tell you
what the Lord has done for me.

Only Jesus could do that. No priest, no human can forgive your sin, save your soul, cleanse your heart and make you whole. Only Christ has the power to do that.

Forgiveness is one thing only Jesus can do. When I trusted him he forgave all my sin: past, present and future.
Rom.8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
Think of that: no condemnation--none! God looks upon me and sees "no condemnation. I should write this in the purgatory thread, for that is why there is no purgatory. There is no condemnation. The only thing that God sees is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I stand in His righteousness perfectly holy. I, therefore, do not need to go to a priest.

In fact I am a priest before God.
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
--Each believer in Christ is a priest, and collectively we make up a holy priesthood. Therefore I have no need of a human priest. He can't help; he is useless. All my sins are forgiven.

Again, as we teach children:
Gone, gone, gone, gone
Yes my sins are gone,
Now my soul is free
And in my heart’s a song;
Buried in the deepest sea
Yes, that’s good enough for me–
I shall live eternally
Praise God!
My sins are G-O-N-E gone!

It is great to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that one's sins are gone forever. And if they are, what need is there of a priest?

If there is a need to confess daily sin that doesn't condemn, then the Bible says:
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
--I am a priest before God, and at any time I can appear before my Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. Wonderful isn't it?

Then the author of Hebrews says:
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
--I have the privilege of coming right before His throne of grace. What a great privilege that is! And why do I need a human priest again??
It is God that forgives sins. And I don't even have to make an appointment, and his line is never busy. Great isn't it?[/QUOTE]

Not only did they forgive sins, but they performed miracles too! Yes, all in the name of Jesus Christ, but they were the humans whose God's power passed through.

Why I used to watch a Pastor on TV (the guy with the toupee who had a funny voice) and he was healing people in these modern days. Don't you believe that? In the Church today, miracles happen all the time - people are healed and made whole again both mentally and physically - don't you believe that either?

 

[steaver]

How do you know you are not being led by Pastors who are sexual perverts? No one really knows who they are until they get caught, right?

To answer your question, I only consider one my pastor if I have a personal relationship with him. But that was not my question to you.

"How do you know you are not confessing your sins to a Pedophile?"

 

[DHK]

Not only did they forgive sins, but they performed miracles too! Yes, all in the name of Jesus Christ, but they were the humans whose God's power passed through.

Why I used to watch a Pastor on TV (the guy with the toupee who had a funny voice) and he was healing people in these modern days. Don't you believe that? In the Church today, miracles happen all the time - people are healed and made whole again both mentally and physically - don't you believe that either?

Let's look at what the scriptures say. I believe in sola scriptura. I believe in what God has to say, not the opinions and delusions of men.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
--These were second generation believers. They had seen the apostles. They bore witness to them doing signs and wonders along with different miracles and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit. They themselves did not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit (as listed in 1Cor.12:28,29). But they knew the apostles who did and practiced them. They were a sign of the apostles, not a sign to the rest of the believers.

Look again
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
--Paul is telling them that he also is an apostle, and that he also has wrought the signs of an apostle before them--signs (miracles), wonders, mighty deeds. Others could not do this he could.

Consider a more practical example:
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is healing. Peter exercises this gift here.
Only a person with the true gift of healing could heal in this way. No one has this gift today. It ceased in the first century. What did Peter do?
All that came to him, from all the cities all around Jerusalem, ALL, no one excluded, no infirmity excluded, he healed EVERYONE
--They didn't have hospitals back then. Anyone who claims to have the gift of healing today should be able to up and down the aisles of the major hospitals of any given city and heal each and every one. Go to the ER's and heal them all. Heal the broken bones, that quadriplegic. the lame, blind, etc. Those who have obvious visible infirmities and diseases. Let the so-called faith healer of today heal all that are in the hospitals. But no, he cannot, because he does not have the Biblical gift which ceased in the first century.

So watch your guys with the toupees.
But consider also your Catholic saints who supposedly did miracles to get to "sainthood."
They didn't.
God does miracles. Satan imitates. I wonder who the Catholics follow.

 

[Adonia]

Let's look at what the scriptures say. I believe in sola scriptura. I believe in what God has to say, not the opinions and delusions of men.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
--These were second generation believers. They had seen the apostles. They bore witness to them doing signs and wonders along with different miracles and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit. They themselves did not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit (as listed in 1Cor.12:28,29). But they knew the apostles who did and practiced them. They were a sign of the apostles, not a sign to the rest of the believers.

Look again
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
--Paul is telling them that he also is an apostle, and that he also has wrought the signs of an apostle before them--signs (miracles), wonders, mighty deeds. Others could not do this he could.

Consider a more practical example:
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is healing. Peter exercises this gift here.
Only a person with the true gift of healing could heal in this way. No one has this gift today. It ceased in the first century. What did Peter do?
All that came to him, from all the cities all around Jerusalem, ALL, no one excluded, no infirmity excluded, he healed EVERYONE
--They didn't have hospitals back then. Anyone who claims to have the gift of healing today should be able to up and down the aisles of the major hospitals of any given city and heal each and every one. Go to the ER's and heal them all. Heal the broken bones, that quadriplegic. the lame, blind, etc. Those who have obvious visible infirmities and diseases. Let the so-called faith healer of today heal all that are in the hospitals. But no, he cannot, because he does not have the Biblical gift which ceased in the first century.

So watch your guys with the toupees.
But consider also your Catholic saints who supposedly did miracles to get to "sainthood."
They didn't.
God does miracles. Satan imitates. I wonder who the Catholics follow.

There you go again, saying another thing ended in the first century when it really did not. Oh yee of little faith!

 

[steaver]

There you go again, saying another thing ended in the first century when it really did not. Oh yee of little faith!

DHK is spot on! Name me just one of your Catholic priest who can heal people. Just one.

You guys like to quote Matt 9 as proof your priest can forgive sins - (vs 8) "But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men". But you leave out the connection Jesus made in the passage between saying a person's sins are forgiven and the actual physical healing of a person. So you are taking this verse out of it's context and trying to apply it to your post Apostleship practice of going to a priest to have him say your sins are forgiven.

(vs 5) "For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?" When you produce one of your priest who can say to a crippled man 'Arise and walk' and he does, then you will have some proof of your held beliefs to be of God. But it has never ever happened again since the Apostles have departed from this earth. So again I challenge you to name just one of your priest who is healing the blind and the crippled, just one. The 'such power given unto men' was exclusive to Jesus and His chosen Apostles whom He had given said power to. None has seen such power since. Not in the Catholic church nor in the Protestant churches. If it were so, ANYONE who would go to such a priest believing in this Word would be healed by said priest, ANYONE and ALL without exception. The old "you didn't get healed for lack of faith" would be destroyed.

 

[DHK]

There you go again, saying another thing ended in the first century when it really did not. Oh yee of little faith!

You gave me your opinion, for what it is worth.
1. You didn't give any scripture to back it up, contrary to the scripture that I gave which you did not refute. That just gives evidence to the fact that sola scriptura in any debate wins out over baseless opinion without evidence--usually parroting the line of the RCC which ends up to be nothing more than propaganda. Why not provide evidence for your statements?

2. If the gifts did not end provide the evidence. Can you heal all the people in the different ER's in your hospitals in your city? Can your priest? your bishop? the pope? hmmm.

 

[Adonia]

You gave me your opinion, for what it is worth.
1. You didn't give any scripture to back it up, contrary to the scripture that I gave which you did not refute. That just gives evidence to the fact that sola scriptura in any debate wins out over baseless opinion without evidence--usually parroting the line of the RCC which ends up to be nothing more than propaganda. Why not provide evidence for your statements?

2. If the gifts did not end provide the evidence. Can you heal all the people in the different ER's in your hospitals in your city? Can your priest? your bishop? the pope? hmmm.

All the people in the ER? If that's what God wanted it could happen. What is the matter, don't you believe that miracles and healings can happen in this day and age? Tell me my friend, where in the Scriptures does it say that things like this end with the Apostles?

 

[DHK]

All the people in the ER? If that's what God wanted it could happen. What is the matter, don't you believe that miracles and healings can happen in this day and age? Tell me my friend, where in the Scriptures does it say that things like this end with the Apostles?

"Don't you believe?"
I don't believe that anyone has what is termed as the gift of healing or the gift of miracles today. If you do, provide evidence that such a person with such a gift exists. Otherwise don't make baseless and silly claims that are in reality lies and propaganda. Don't post such on this board unless you have the evidence.

Yes, I believe God answers prayer, and in doing so heals people, and does many other wonderful things.
But he does not do the type of miracles he did in the NT--those miracles that demonstrated his deity.
Please take a selfie of you as you walk across a major body of water, like Peter did on the Sea of Galilee.

Matthew 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
--He came walking to them on the Sea of Galilee. This was no puddle of water!

Matthew 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
--Tell me when you can do as Peter did.

As far as the gift of healing is concerned:
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--Tell me when you can heal as Peter healed.

Where is your evidence?

 

[Adonia]

"Don't you believe?"
I don't believe that anyone has what is termed as the gift of healing or the gift of miracles today. If you do, provide evidence that such a person with such a gift exists. Otherwise don't make baseless and silly claims that are in reality lies and propaganda. Don't post such on this board unless you have the evidence.

Yes, I believe God answers prayer, and in doing so heals people, and does many other wonderful things.
But he does not do the type of miracles he did in the NT--those miracles that demonstrated his deity.
Please take a selfie of you as you walk across a major body of water, like Peter did on the Sea of Galilee.

Matthew 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
--He came walking to them on the Sea of Galilee. This was no puddle of water!

Matthew 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
--Tell me when you can do as Peter did.

As far as the gift of healing is concerned:
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--Tell me when you can heal as Peter healed.

Where is your evidence?

Good grief, I was talking about healings and miracles in general i.e, the things that do happen today, not those specific things you are mentioning.

 

[DHK]

Good grief, I was talking about healings and miracles in general i.e, the things that do happen today, not those specific things you are mentioning.

What things?
1. I never denied that God answers prayer in very special ways.
2. However, to claim that the gifts of the Spirit, as in the gift of healing and the gift of miracles are still operative today is wrong. And that is what you claimed. Either retract your claim or give evidence that such gifts are operative today. That is all I am asking.

 

[Adonia]

What things?
1. I never denied that God answers prayer in very special ways.
2. However, to claim that the gifts of the Spirit, as in the gift of healing and the gift of miracles are still operative today is wrong. And that is what you claimed. Either retract your claim or give evidence that such gifts are operative today. That is all I am asking.

I'll tell you what I'll do. I shall retract my statement as soon as you retract your statement that no Apostle or man can forgive sins. I proved my case with the appropriate Scripture - "And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven" - but something is getting in the way for you to acknowledge that fact, pride maybe?

 

[DHK]

I'll tell you what I'll do. I shall retract my statement as soon as you retract your statement that no Apostle or man can forgive sins. I proved my case with the appropriate Scripture - "And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven" - but something is getting in the way for you to acknowledge that fact, pride maybe?

I proved you wrong with other scripture. One verse does not stand against the rest of the Bible. Either the rest of the Bible is wrong or your interpretation of this one verse is wrong. Which is it? You will have to go back and read my response to you and demonstrate why my response is wrong. You haven't done that. I wasn't wrong in my answer to you. You just didn't like the answer, nor have you responded to it.

Now I will wait for a retraction on both statements/posts.

 

[Adonia]

I proved you wrong with other scripture. One verse does not stand against the rest of the Bible. Either the rest of the Bible is wrong or your interpretation of this one verse is wrong. Which is it? You will have to go back and read my response to you and demonstrate why my response is wrong. You haven't done that. I wasn't wrong in my answer to you. You just didn't like the answer, nor have you responded to it.

Now I will wait for a retraction on both statements/posts.

The Scriptures can be awful contradictory at times as you should well know. For instance, in the case of Judas' death, did it happen like this: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field." (MAT 27:5) Or like this: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

Now, you could proffer one verse to explain Judas's death and I the other. So in this case which Scripture verse imparts the honest to goodness truth about the death of Judas? You tell me.

 

[DHK]

The Scriptures can be awful contradictory at times as you should well know. For instance, in the case of Judas' death, did it happen like this: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field." (MAT 27:5) Or like this: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

Now, you could proffer one verse to explain Judas's death and I the other. So in this case which Scripture verse imparts the honest to goodness truth about the death of Judas? You tell me.

The accurate account is given in the gospels as Judas threw the money into the temple it is obvious he could not have purchased the land for himself.

In Acts it says:
Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
--What happened as recorded here?
Though Judas did not buy the field directly he did so indirectly for it was his money that paid for and it was purchased in his name.
Matthew 27 also records that he went out and hanged himself, which he did. The account in Acts simply adds some of the more gruesome details to that without contradiction.
--"falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

"Falling headlong," that is as he fell when he was hung, he burst asunder. His intestines quickly became swollen and distended after being hung and "burst asunder."

Or,
(CEV) Then Judas bought some land with the money he was given for doing that evil thing. He fell headfirst into the field. His body burst open, and all his insides came out.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If there are difficult passages then study them until you find the answer to the seeming contradiction has been solved. It is not the Bible that contradicts itself, it is man that rebels against what God is saying in His Word.