The Arminian Future Scenario

webdog,

It is not as if people are drowning. People are held in bondage, dead and blind!

Thats why it says "The truth shall set you free".

You may say...free from what? I am already free!

If people are already free....what did Jesus come to set people free from?

Why couldn't all these people with freedom to choose just simply choose not to sin in the first place?

I mean if all you people that have free-choice and free-will keep sinning....what is are you free from?

Jesus is the truth. He sets free! Free from what?

How about the bondage of Satan? How about the wrath of God? How about the law which kills?

Do you really think you chose to save yourself before intervention upon your mind by God?

Maybe you can explain how people become able because of free-will to believe the gospel?

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If the god of this evil world has blinded....are they not blinded?

Now tell me WHO has made you see? Is it you? Your pastor? Your wife? Your will? My will? The will of the United States people?

Are you going to sit there over and over again and give YOU the credit when the credit is due to GOD?

What do you think He will say to you about that? After all, it has been clearly shown to you and you reject it.

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God commanded the light to shine! Thats how it happens!

He opens eyes to see Him...and once eyes are opened, they are not blind!

2 Timothy 1:9 we read, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

I dont know about you.....but I was not here to choose before the world began!

Regards to you! God bless you! KJB

 

Finally??? I have long ago addressed the absolute absurdity of your scenario in far more detail. This was just a brief post about the foundations of it.

Actually - ONLY the Calvinst scenario "requires" this (see the post just above yours SHOWING the "cause of rejoicing" the Calvinist posts.

The Arminian scenario is very emphatic in pointing out exactly how God is SHOWN to be even MORE caring and loving toward the lost than the saved parents.

gotcha</font>[/QUOTE]Did you think before you wrote this? If your child was playing in a busy street, do you love him enough to ask him to come to the yard and beg him to come and to even open the gate? Or do you love him enough to go and pick him up and bring him back?

You see, you have a bad idea of what love is and it expooses your whole nonsense. A God who loves people enough to let them go to hell is not a very loving God ... unless there is something bigger at work. Even your response here shows just how flawed your foundation is.

There is no spinning or twisting involved. Your foundation is flawed.

I hope everyone notices and pays attention to the way in which two simple statements about your foundation disprove the whole story you have concocted. It is not biblical and you know it.

You have started from a flawed foundation; you ignore God's revelation on the matter; you construct logically flawed arguments. That is not a good way to debate. This was a bad scenario the first time you tried. It was easily refuted. It still is.

 

Bob Ryan's view and interpretation of Revelation 14:10 is his and his alone. Nowhere can I find anyone of scholarly merit who agrees with Bob.

This is a figment of his fertile imagination which is fueled by an absolute disdain for truth when it comes to this particular verse.

The Book of Revelation is for many like Bob a treasure trove of verses that "prove" their particular slants on scripture.

 

Woudn't it be nice if "that" were true??

Let us "see the details" as Johnathan Edwards admits to the very same obvious facts posted in my review of Rev 14 -- that you so wish had not been "admitted".

 

Woudn't it be nice if "that" were true??

Let us "see the details" as Johnathan Edwards admits to the very same obvious facts posted in my review of Rev 14 -- that you so wish had not been "admitted".

</font>[/QUOTE]kinda self seeking. Very few people post quotes from others on here as much as you and the other bob does. Must be a bob thing. however..in this case you want to uphold the calvin..and not go with the Bible.

If calvin, edwards...anyone says it..and you can not find it in the bible...throw it out.

this maybe a good rule to remember

 

As I said on another thread - I quote from the Bible and if not from there - from well-known accepted CALVINIST sources.

Notice that in Hardshellers baseless accusation the charge he makes is NOT in the form of exegesis or a Bible review AT ALL. Rather his charge is that NTHER accepted sources will admit to the obvious details I show for Rev 14.

In fact I quote 'this very detail' as the START of my post above...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob Ryan's view and interpretation of Revelation 14:10 is his and his alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So "my" response is NOT ONLY to show that there are "other sources" but that EVEN CALVINIST sources admit to it.

This is "objectivity" taken to an entirely different level than Calvinists are willing to go to here in the all-for-calvinism type responses they give.

But "even there" you can find someonse opposing that objective type of response as you point out.

Had you really been serious about that complaint that someone else was quoted - one "might" have expected to see you jumping on Hardsheller's post as you "insist" that he NOT complain about "other sources not being used in support of Bob's view". But -- you did not do that.

Because the point is "not the argument" employed it is the "result achieved" -- defend Calvinism at all costs.

Fine if that is the way you want to do it.

In the mean time I will be focused "on the details".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Agreed - the fact that Calvinist sources agree with me - does not mean that they are correct or that I am correct.

I was simply pointing out that "in the details" Hardsheller's assertion was false.

It ALSO shows that the future senario is LEGIT for at least those Calvinists THAT DO agree with people like Edwards.

So trying to spin it as "Bogus" would require slamming all of Calvinism (or nearly all of it) that is in agreement with Edwards.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Lets see "Who else" has to go to make the charge that the "Future Scenarios" should not allow the righteous to see the wicked suffering (AS IF the righteous are NOT with the LAMB in heaven).

#1. Rev 14 STARTS by insisting that the Righteous ARE with the LAMB in heaven! (So does this mean that John is also "bogus"??)

John begins with the good news about the future of the saints, purchased from the earth – in fellowship with Christ and one day known as the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

This leaves us no excuse for insisting that the Saints are NOT in the presence of the Lamb. In fact both the saints AND the Angels are in His presence!


Then we get to the heart of the matter --

Then the punishment of the wicked becomes the focus of the message in chapter 14 for a few verses. They suffer the “wrath of God” . They suffer IN the presence of the Lamb!

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

It is personal and individual and it is carried out vs 10 "in the presence of the holy ones and in the presence of the Lamb

And as we saw in vs 4 the saints are "the ones who Follow the LAMB WHEREVER He goes". (Same author, same book same chapter, same topic)

Johnathan Edwards seem to concur with the fact that the saints will SEE the torment of the wicked in Rev 14:10 as they are IN the presence of Christ!

jonathanedwards.com


Other texts that confirm what John is saying about the saints in vs 4 applying to all the saints in general include –
John 14:3 “That WHERE I am THERE you may be also”
1 Thess 4:13 “And THUS (after the rapture) shall WE ever be WITH the Lord”

So now we have the “problem” of the wicked “In the Presence” of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones – Holy Angles AND the saints ALSO WITH the Lamb by the time of this fire-and-brimstone future event predicted by the third angel.

JFB Commentary and also Edwards would have to be "bogus" since they all affirm the Rev 14:10 idea of ALL the saints seeing all the wicked suffer "IN the presence of the Lamb".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Its still "bogus" if its not in Gods Word.

If you take rev 14 for this..you must take the whole passage and apply it to the same time zone.

we can talk about this if you want...but for now lets just call it bogus

 

JFB Commentary and also Edwards would have to be "bogus" since they all affirm the Rev 14:10 idea of ALL the saints seeing all the wicked suffer "IN the presence of the Lamb".
[/QUOTE]

aaaaaw now we are getting somewhere. chech out the link you posted..and read the whole page. Then get back to us what time zone this is? then maybe you will understand.."bogus"

 

also...reread isa 66 is it? somewhere in there..
this also tells what "age" it is.

rightly dividing the word of truth...it always fits

 

What "time zone"??

Are you suggesting that the Bible changed recently?

In any case - you are free to declare all these Calvinist sources as 'not your sources'.

And of course John is writing in vs 14:6 insisting that the saints are with the Lamb LONNNG before any of them. So if "old is bogus" he is out with the best of them.

And of course Paul in 1Thess 4 writing that all the saints are WITH The Lamb - is even OLDER than John (in terms of when the letter was written).

You can boot all these sources for saying that the saints are WITH the Lamb if you choose.

I am not complaining. It is your choice to defend Calvinism in that way.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Of course I was one who insisted that Rev 14:6 showing the saints WITH the LAMB was "in the Bible".

And I am also one of those who thinks that 1Thess 4 "So shall WE ever be WITH the Lord" is "in" the Bible.

But in general - I agree with you that just having an outside OBJECTIVE Bible source from "the other side" would not be sufficient to make my case.

Are you thinking I would have a problem with that?

(You must be kidding! Or maybe you don't know my doctrinal background)

In any case - the sources quoted DO seem to point to all this as if it is in one time zone -- I on the other hand see it as LITERALLY in the same time zone.

The fire and brimstone mentioned here is the same as we see in the Lake of Fire in Rev 20.

It is ONE event - ONE timezone -- EVERYONE is there for it.

The timezone "detail" is not an inconvenient fact for me - my view "insists" on it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

See - I am happy to concur with your point on "time zone" once I understood your point.

But having done that - is your argument still ok or are you saying that the Calvinists I quote on Rev 14:10 did not realize that the fire and brimstone of Rev 14 is the same as we see in Rev 20?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

The bogus part of your interpretation occurs when you superimpose on scripture the idea that Parents will mourn their lost children in hell while they (the parents) are in the presence of the Lord in Heaven.

That is not substantiated by the scriptures. And I repeat my charge - No other accepted sources make this claim. I.E. no respectable Biblical Scholars make this claim.

 

Hardsheller,

That is a great point you make!

If Bob has been preaching some sort of "mourning in heaven" it is something we can prove as false.

Mourning in heaven is actually not supported by Scripture.

They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

God bless and regards, KJB

 

those you quote speak for themselves. But bob remember, If they said something wrong..it's wrong.

i do not own a edwards book so i can not tell you his real thoughts.

i do have the jamieson fausset and brown commentary.

1st thanks for the link. I did not know of this, but maybe it will be helpful someday.

Let me tell you what i see bob.

this passage is near the end of the tribulation. right before the Great trumpet judgment. The rature has happened..the church is in heaven. The 144,000 are still on the earth. they will not die..for a protective seal had been placed on their foreheads.


verse 1 tells us where this is...

"mount zion" many try to spiritualize this passage and say it is a vision of heaven and all the saints. some even go as far as to say that the 144,000 of rev 7 is not the same as rev 14 and that 14 is talking about the church as a group.

Mount zion ALWAYs refers in the Bible to a place...a actual mountain on which jerusalem was built or to jerusalem herself.

even in hebs 12 22-24

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The word "come" means "draw near" and is translated in heb 10:22 as consent. the thrust of heb 12 is that jewish believers to whom the book of heb is addressed had not been content with only the doctrine from mount zion, speaking of judgment on sin and law, but gone to the doctrine of salvation, though the blood of christ....and is promised the restoration of ALL things

The new jerusalem will indeed come down one day and rest on mount zion. a real place..a real city..someday a new city.

Now back to rev 14..

verse one also tells us who will be there with Him..(the lamb)

"144,000"

the 144,000 we are told are the jews.

notice verse 2..."voice from heaven"

in verse 2 the music starts...this is the voice..the singing and it starts in heaven

in 3 the 144,000 are the only ones left on earth that can LEARN the song and do sing it

4 and 5 are more about the 144,000

6-7 is the 1st angel..."do not believe the antichrist"

verse 8 is the 2nd angel...Babylon falls

9-11 is a warning not to follow the beast and tell what will happen if they do.

12-13 is about those that died standing up to the beast. They are called staints

14-16 IT IS HARVEST TIME. God comes as he warns in 9 and 10 and with a sharp sickle kills all the sinners....thrust in the sickle and reap. The time has come to reap the harvest. The harvest of the earth is ripe. THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON. This is God as hating.

17-20 is the grapes of gods wrath.

who will see this? well the only ones we know for sure are the 144,000. they are there and see this 1st hand. the army is there to defeat them the jews. God comes and the army now turns on God. God kills all army of the beast. Will the 144,000 rejoice? yes i think they will. Rejoice in the blood? no..more rejoice that God came and saved them.


I want to point out something here.

The battle is God agaist Man.

God will...mans will

This is always the battle.

many want to guess who the beast is..and add 666 to 24 and takeaway 12 years and....blah blah blah.

The point is...it is the number of man


it is man..and mans will that will go to war with God.

it started in the garden..it will in at armageddon


now..i know this is outside the c/a forum. and i know many have views on this. but it was asked of me if others views are right. I do not know other views as well as mine. I can only share my views.


In Christ..James

 

James,

Thank you for sharing your point on Rev 14:10.

I don't agree with all you have said - but I do agree that the Rev 14:10 scenario points to a specific point in time AND to a specific place. Mount Zion as you say.

It speaks of God judging the wicked and contrasts obedience to God vs rebellion.

It also points out the saints (the 144,000 at the very least) that are "WITH the Lamb".

1Thess 4 ALSO speaks of all the saints "EVER WITH the Lord" - so I would argue that Edwards is right when he concludes that the SAINTS are WITH the Lamb IN His very presence in Rev 14:10.

Even Your view has the saints (or at least some jewish contingent of them - maybe) WITH the Lamb SEEING the destruction of the wicked.

In Rev 19 we have the 2nd coming and in Rev 20 prior to the 1000 years we see the FIRST resurrection. Notice that Rev 20 declares those in the first resurrection to be the Holy Blessed and righteous people of God over whom the second death has no power.

I happen to think that the resurrection of all the saints in 1Thess 4 is the FIRST resurrection that John sees looking into the future. The one that starts the 1000 years.

In any case - both views "seem" to have the righteous SEEING the wicked in torment. (Even if some views think of this as only 144,000 righteous seeing it).

So unless one is convinced that none of the righteous are Calvinists - - then the Calvinist future scenario IS correct to expect that there will be Calvinist parents in heaven seeing lost children suffer in the flames.

And my Arminian scenario is ALSO correct in that IT TOO expects to see Arminian parents in heaven in Rev 14:10 seeing their lost children suffering in the flames.

The point here is that the scenario points to facts about the future that can not be denied for "a case" in point. Though one might try to limit the number of people WITH THE LAMB in Rev 14:10 all seem to agree that the saints (or some portion of them) are there.

In Christ,

Bob