The Arminian Future Scenario

The "bogus" part of your position is where you ignore the 1Cor 2 fact that the saints "are given the Mind of Christ" AND ignore the many texts SHOWING the weeping of God over the lost AND ignore the fact that God is LOVE not hate - and ignore the fact that it is only AFTER the "fire and brimstone" events of Rev 20 that we see the Rev 21 promise of "tears WIPED away"!!

By ignoring scripture after scripture -- you can simply post a scripture-devoid post as the one above "as if" you had actually proven something!

As impossible as your use of that kind of reasoning is to credit, the more "Amazing" thing is that seem to be comfortable admitting to it!!

I for one would be very challenged to crawl so far out on that limb.

But to each his own. I will provid "once again" the texts SHOWING the MIND OF CHRIST and how HE weeps over the lost!

(More scripture to "ignore"??)

In Christ,

Bob

 

When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

 

Good point from Rev 21 AFTER the Lake of Fire event of Rev 20 is passed.

That was my point exactly!

Rev 14:10 is DURING that fire and brimstone event.

But Rev 21:8 is AFTER -- and so AFTERWARDS we see the statement that the tears are "WIPED AWAY".

Praise God for that!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

There maybe in fact others with Christ as he comes. In my view the book of Rev is not just a story of chronological order. There is an over all flow of this, but there are also parenthesis within the book to show new light on a given event. Chapter 14 is a parenthetical of Armageddon, also shown later in the book.

Some view the church will ride with Christ in this attack on the beast and his army. I have no problem with that, it is just not told in this passage without a force. Again, I'm not saying this is wrong...just not as clear as the 144,000 that ARE there.

But my real point..this is not HELL. This battle happens on earth. The OP and texas post had us looking into hell..and watching the sinners burn there. This in Rev 14 is not looking INTO Hell.

2nd...if you attach the church to those that come with Christ, the rejoicing that happens is not from the blood, but because of the victory that Christ brought with Him in curshing the beast.

So the main point is this...There will be joy in heaven..not endless saddness by looking into hell and seeing those that burn. Joy is with Jesus.


In Christ...James

 

I agree with you that the army in Rev 19 is not the church coming to rescue the church.

I also see your point further supported in 2Thess chapter 1

This is Christ and "His Angels" coming to rescue the persecuted church - it is not the church coming with Christ to rescue the persecuted church.

But that it not the point of Rev 14:10. The fire and brimstone event of Rev 14:10 AND of Rev 20 happens as Rev 20 points out - "after the 1000 years".

The "rescue of the saints" of 2Thess 1 and of Rev 19 happens as the Rev 19-20 sequence shows -- BEFORE the 1000 years at the 2nd coming of Christ.

I am not mixing those two.

The saints who "with the Lamb" witness the fire and brimstone punishment of the wicked - in Rev 14 are the same ones seeing that same fire and brimstone punishment in Rev 20 "AFTER" the 1000 years and BEFORE the Rev 21 event where "All tears are wiped away".

As to whether Johnathan Edwards fully understood this when he confessed to saints being WITH the Lamb -- when the wicked suffer IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB (in Rev 14) I can not say.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I also agree with this point.

But this NOT accomplished by ignoring the undisputable facts that follow

#1. God weeps over the lost
#2. The SAINTS are given that SAME mind of Christ regarding the lost.
#3. "EVERY TEAR" is WIPED away in Rev 21 only AFTER the fire and brimstone event of the "2nd death" of Rev 20.

This means -- no rejoicing as you watch your precious loved one in torment in the flames but rather it means we have the SAME SORROW As CHRIST - who SAYS He weeps over it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I also agree with this point.

But this NOT accomplished by ignoring the undisputable facts that follow

#1. God weeps over the lost
#2. The SAINTS are given that SAME mind of Christ regarding the lost.
#3. "EVERY TEAR" is WIPED away in Rev 21 only AFTER the fire and brimstone event of the "2nd death" of Rev 20.

This means -- no rejoicing as you watch your precious loved one in torment in the flames but rather it means we have the SAME SORROW As CHRIST - who SAYS He weeps over it.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,

With this post I close my debate on this subject and I will give you last word. Below is the OP and the other view…

*********************************
1st from the OP...and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my

2nd.. TexasSky..The Calvinist, looking over that edge, may one day see their child in the line for those marked for hell, and turn to Christ and say, "Lord! Why didn't you save my precious child?!" And Christ, per Cavlinism, will respond. "I didn't feel like it.

Now the text once again posted…Rev 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I still think this is not an event that happens at this time but a warning not to follow the beast. The event happens in 2 parts. One part shortly after this in the battle with the beast. Then also part 2 is 1000+ years later.

This text above says
“in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

Are there more to see this other than Christ and the angels? Well..144,000 we know of in the 1st part. Any others that watch the burning is forced. You say you see others fine. I’m not going to keep on with this.

In any case yours or mine I still do not see the story of the OP or the other view as something that will happen. Looking over the edge seeing a line..and asking God why? Nope..Sorry I cannot see that

This has gone on to long. As I said this will be my last post on the subject and I stand on the OP and other view are bogus thoughts.


In Christ…James

 

#1. You admit that the saints are there IN the presence of God (or at least you admit some are there). (1Thess 4 says 'thus shall we ALWAYS be WITH the Lord)

#2. You admit the Rev 14:10 torment of the wicked is IN THE PRESENCE of the LAMB.

#3. You have trouble with the idea that saints IN the presence of the Lord SEE the wicked who suffer IN THE PRESENCE of the Lord.

Ok -- I see what you are claiming but so far Johnathan Edward's view seems to be more likely as to what is SEEN when BOTH are in the presence of the Lamb.

#4. You object to a Parent in heaven HAVING THE SAME mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16) as does Christ when HE says He weeps over the lost. So you reject the idea that a parent might ask God about being merciful to his precious suffering child.

But if you "note my scenario" it STARTS by insisting on YOUR very point. That concern for the lost IS NOT ALLOWED in Calvinism!!

How can you object to my making YOUR point?!!

I think your "all-for-calvinism" restrictive view is preventing you from being objective -

I will post the "scenario" again -

Please note "the details".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

To reference the Basic Calvinist future Scenario “posted” with details “ignored” by Calvinists ON a thread about God not loving the lost –

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/2.html#000015


The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.


(Posted here because details seem to have been missed in the Calvinists memory of the point being made.)

It is one thing to differ with the opposition's point -- it is another not to know what it is.

 

Here we see a post arguing that God should not be expected to “care” for all – particularly not the lost –

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1547.html#000000


Here is a quote showing the fact that from the human POV there is no difference between the lost and the elect. (i.e. arbitrary selection) accepted by Calvinists today.

Notice that it also affirms the “expected future condition” of parents in heaven although their child is “lost”. (Parent selected, Child not selected)

And here we see confirmed the "all deserve hell but is it not great that some are selected to be elect point of Calvinism – as it turns from the sorrowful case of the lost and just sees how they “deserve what they get”.

God “shows mercy to SOME but not others” according to Pastor Larry.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1406/5.html#000069

Calvinist overjoyed at this inexplicable selection” of one and not the other idea.. In their view – God saves all He “cares” to save and none else..

Here we see the joy of God sending some to hell and others to save and BOTH groups perfectly performing His will – a monstrous idea that would get you “locked up” if you treated a family member this way (according to the Calvinist quote below)

 

I press the point of “Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion” with John after seeing the post above – and he responds.

quote: Bob said
________________________________________
-- I thought you had agreed that God is not the author/designer/master/originator/maker of sin?
________________________________________

quote: Bob said
________________________________________
-- I think I will add your post to the Calvinist future scenario right after "SURE I could have -- IF I had CARED to"
________________________________________

</font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Larry then zeroes in on the point that we should look at the saved and the grace shown them and not concern ourselves with care/love/feelings for the lost as if some bad thing has been arbitrarily done – just focus on the “good” in a case where you have the luxury of ignoring the lost suffering in hell.

Calvinist scenario “confirmed”.