The Arminian Prayer

[Ray Berrian]

While sinners have been alienated because their sins have made them 'dead toward God,' [Ephesians 2:1]this is not to say that the Spirit of God is ineffectual in His conviction and convicting the lost of their need of Christ. [John 16:8] The point is is the Holy Spirit mightier than the evil one's
hold on each sinner? If God the Spirit cannot touch the heart and life of the lost, we then have another set of problems. In II Peter 3:9 it is not only the Lord who desires to establish a relationship with sinners, the Father and the Holy Spirit also have Their unified desire toward His lost creatures.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
While sinners have been alienated because their sins have made them 'dead toward God,' [Ephesians 2:1]...

Ray, Ephesians 2:1 does NOT!!! say dead toward God, it says dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[Monergist]

DEAD- A Definition----

From THAYERS- G3498
νεκρός
nekros
Thayer Definition:
1) properly
1a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
1b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
1c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaphorically
2a) spiritually dead
2a1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2a2) inactive as respects doing right
2b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)

From STRONG"S G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.


And for good measure, from MERRIAM-WEBSTER 1 : deprived of life : having died
; devoid of life


THere's been two assertions made here that I'm still trying to reconcile.

1} Is that Calvinists change meanings of words to suit their own ends, &
2} Is that "dead" means 'still able to respond'

We can move on to the next word as soon as we clear this up.

 

[Bro. James]

Dead is dead--

If one is dead one must be born again to begin to exercise the faith given by God. See John Ch.--Jesus and the Rabbi Nicodemus.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Monergist:
DEAD- A Definition----

From THAYERS- G3498
νεκρός
nekros
Thayer Definition:
1) properly
1a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
1b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
1c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaphorically
2a) spiritually dead
2a1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2a2) inactive as respects doing right
2b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)

From STRONG"S G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.


And for good measure, from MERRIAM-WEBSTER 1 : deprived of life : having died
; devoid of life


THere's been two assertions made here that I'm still trying to reconcile.

1} Is that Calvinists change meanings of words to suit their own ends, &
2} Is that "dead" means 'still able to respond'

We can move on to the next word as soon as we clear this up.

Answered what spiritual death was according to the Bible. Its up to you to prove it wrong. You def. says dead means unable to respond. However we see in Rom 1:20 that Paul clearly declares that God's truth is clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. We see Adam and Eve AFTER the fall could hear the voice of God and respond to HIm. It shows from their reaction that they could understand the meaning of the words too.
Again, if we use your def. of death for spiritual death then Roms 6:2 tells us that we have died to sin! Hmm guess you are living a perfect life unable to sin simply because you cannot respond to it!!
I reject your def of dead for the def showed in the Bible.

Tim

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Answered what spiritual death was according to the Bible. Its up to you to prove it wrong. You def. says dead means unable to respond... I reject your def of dead for the def showed in the Bible.

Tim

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist;
How does a dead man sin? I mean you say if man is dead in sin so he can't respond to the gospel then please explain how he sins at all. I mean dead is just like that Horse of your's you keep beating. He just lays there and takes it.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

Monergist,

You jumped ship before you answered my question and comment. Again,

[John 16:8] The point is--is the Holy Spirit mightier than the evil one's hold on each sinner?

In II Peter 3:9 it is not only the Lord who desires to establish a relationship with sinners, the Father and the Holy Spirit also have Their unified desire toward Their lost creatures, namely sinners.

Either the Holy Spirit can touch the life of the sinner in pointing him to Christ or He is ineffectual toward all sinners.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The Bible teaches that the Fall did not destroy man’s free will; furthermore, we teach that God the Spirit moves on the heart of the ‘dead soul’ enabling him to cooperate with God in salvation by the act of the will that we call faith. While it is true that man must bear responsibility in responding to the Gospel (John 5:40), the sinner’s will has been affected because of the Fall [Romans 3:11-12; Ephesians 2:1]; his or her soul needs God’s grace in order to be saved {Ephesians 2:8; John 3:16;I John 5:13}

Although I don’t prefer the term, Prevenient Grace, I would rather say that this is the movement of the Holy Spirit on the life of the lost soul, before regeneration can take place.

John 16:8 is a reminder to the church that God is actively at work on souls who are in this world, convicting and convincing them of their need of Jesus. We cannot bring conviction but our words for the Lord can be the instrumentality through which the Spirit of God ministers.

Personally, I believe that the word grace is a word that should only be used when the Lord justifies the lost one, and never before this monumental experience takes place in the human heart and life.

The term, Prevenient Grace is the counterpoint of the Calvinist’s view of Total Depravity.

Man is a spirit/soul being and God the Spirit has a perfect access to all sinners because God is a spiritual Being.

Even after the Fall in the Garden God continued to create Noah in His image [Genesis 9:6; James 3:9]
Even in 60 A.D. the half-brother of Jesus was teaching that sinners are created with an inner spiritual dimension that has remained viable by which the Spirit of God can speak to the one who is 'dead and in traspasses and sins.' [Ephesians 2:1]

Dr. Berrian

 

[Timtoolman]

Nice cartoon, totally ignores, again , the respondes thoug .
Oh I get it you are showing me your def. kof dead again. By not responding.

 

[Ray Berrian]

James, the servant of God acknowledged that sinners are created ' . . . after the similitude of God; the lost are not as dead as 'a door nail.' [James 3:9]

The New Century Version say of this verse, 'We use our tongues to praise our Lord and Father, but then we curse people, whom God made like Himself.'

While some think the lost are dead--being sinners, God is not dead, He is alive forevermore. So one would think from this, that man is not totally outside of God's reach.

God is spirit and we too, sinners and saints are spirit and soul beings who live in a body. We are made after the resemblance of God.

 

[Monergist]

Ray & Tim,

Both of you are creating false dilemna's in order to avoid the plain meaning of words---in this case, the word DEAD.

Ephesians 2:1 plainly states that the unregenerate are considered DEAD. There's no arguing with it unless you want to argue with God who inspired it.

There's a simple answer for all your objections and your false dilemnas and its found right there in the passage. God must have known that we would tend to be really dense in getting this, so He gave it to us 2X, verse 1 & verse 5. WHEN WE WERE DEAD CHRIST RAISED US UP! Do you get it now? We were dead & he made us alive!

Dead people cannot respond until they are enabled too. Christ makes us alive-- our response is then in response to His command.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Monergist;
How does a dead man sin? I mean you say if man is dead in sin so he can't respond to the gospel then please explain how he sins at all. I mean dead is just like that Horse of your's you keep beating. He just lays there and takes it.
May God Bless you;
Mike

Do you qusetion whether a man is dead in sin? If so, please tell what you do with Ephesians 2.

 

[Ray Berrian]

If your dead man sins--as a sinner, he or she is absolutely not responsible for his or her actions against holy God.

Most funeral directors will affirm that the dead do not do too much. They don't sin anymore, or make decisions, because there is no life in the dead body.

At the Great White Throne Judgment, the Lord will not even be able to prosecute sinners because they were dead and did not have a conscious action as to their wrong doing. Remember, they were dead!

 

[nwells]

Ray:

You said:
"If your dead man sins--as a sinner, he or she is absolutely not responsible for his or her actions against holy God."

That is the right question - the Bible asks the same question in Romans 9.

If that question does not come up in your theology - then I believe something is wrong. For if the question comes up in Biblical revelation - then should it not come up in our thoughts as well?

Because He lives,
Nathan

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If your dead man sins--as a sinner, he or she is absolutely not responsible for his or her actions against holy God.

When you make assertions like that, if you want to convince me---
Back them up with some scripture. Because right now, you ain't got none.

My Bible both says that the unregenerate are dead & that they are responsible to God for their rebellion. I believe it & I don't have a problem with it. Do you?

 

[Monergist]

For all who keep insisting that sinners are not dead:


ARE THESE VERSES PART OF INSPIRED TEXT??

Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

1Pe 4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Nice cartoon, totally ignores, again , the respondes thoug .
Oh I get it you are showing me your def. kof dead again. By not responding.

A QUESTION FOR YOU: Why does the horse not respond, like leave or something?

(Hint: You had better not say because the horse is dead!)

But I think that you already see how absurd your defintion is.

 

[nwells]

Ray:

To quote:
"The Bible teaches that the Fall did not destroy man’s free will"


Use better words - "free will" is not in the Biblical vocabulary

Define what you mean by scripture not by words that men have made up.

If the Bible backs it up - then what about Scripture that directly states that God wills and men do?

There is no scripture that I know of, besides one that we infer men have the ultimate choice in (such as God saying, "believe" so we infer that we must have ultimate will because God says "believe" when in fact God says specifically HE does and man follow).


Isaiah 46:10-11 (NKJV)
"Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’
Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it."


We cannot infer from verses that say "believe" or "repent" when Scripture tells us that God speaks and men and animals do what He has spoken - we cannot infer - that men have ultimate decision making power because God says He has it.

Whenever someone talks of free will they infer it - where as when I talk about God being in control - of even those who believe and do not - I don't infer it. The Bible says it:

Romans 9:16 (NKJV)
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

Even Jesus specifically shows us that God is Lord over the choice of believing - They do not believe - they do not choose Christ - Because God did not grant it to them to believe!

John 6:64-65 (NKJV)
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Don't infer when the Bible speaks.

Because He lives,
Nathan

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by acts17_11:
Monergist,
We (me included) need to stop attcking different views

By His Grace Alone,
Michael
www.friendship-piqua.org

Michael,

I just wanted to point out that this is a debate forum, and in most debate, each side does attack the other sides views. That is what debate is all about. Therefore, we should attack the views in the debate forums.

Joseph Botwinick