The Assumption of Mary

[I Am Blessed 24]

Read my signature.

BTW, if you had nothing to be ashamed of...why didn't you list Catholic on your profile???

 

[mrtumnus]

Read my signature.

BTW, if you had nothing to be ashamed of...why didn't you list Catholic on your profile???

I absolutely agree with your signature. It's how I understand that someone can make the claim that the Bible "proves" Mary had other children, when from a look at what the Bible teaches from an "un-set" mind, it does no such thing. The most that can accurately be said about what the Bible teaches is that it does not explicitly say one way or the other. Believing that Mary had other children is based upon assumptions -- Mary and Joseph were young and in love. The nature of their marriage is how we woud view the nature of marriage today. Joseph was never married before. He wasn't an elderly widower. Mary never made a pledge of virginity to the Lord. Anyone perceived by people to be 'brethren' of Jesus were the biological children of Mary. All assumptions people make to support their view, where Scripture does not state these things at all.

Regarding my profile, I thought I put Christian - Catholic. But when I went back, I noticed it only said Christian. I would be happy to change it, but I have never found a way to edit that particular piece of information.

But ashamed of being Catholic? No.

 

[BRIANH]

One problem with James being a step brother, and that is the earliest tradition those who wanted to assert a perpetual virginity followed, is that he dies a Martyr in the 60's as recorded by secular sources...so he would be 90 and nothing indicates he was elderly.

 

[mrtumnus]

One problem with James being a step brother, and that is the earliest tradition those who wanted to assert a perpetual virginity followed, is that he dies a Martyr in the 60's as recorded by secular sources...so he would be 90 and nothing indicates he was elderly.

Does something say he wasn't elderly?

And which James? The one who is supposed to be the brother of Jesus? Or the one who is the son of the other Mary, the one the Bible refers to as the sister of Mary (which is most likely her cousin, rather than two sisters named Mary). Or who could very well be one and the same -- seen as a 'brethren' of Jesus because they shared common family.

I certainly don't have a problem if you do not want to believe in a perpetual virginity. I think it's quite problematic to try to take the position that the Bible proves otherwise.

And how do you get 90? If he died in the 60's, that's about 30 years after Christ died.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Read my signature.

BTW, if you had nothing to be ashamed of...why didn't you list Catholic on your profile???

Catholics are now allowed to register as Catholics?

I have an Orthodox friend who tried to register as an Orthodox Christian and was denied? What's up with that?

In XC
-

 

[BRIANH]

Does something say he wasn't elderly?

And which James? The one who is supposed to be the brother of Jesus? Or the one who is the son of the other Mary, the one the Bible refers to as the sister of Mary (which is most likely her cousin, rather than two sisters named Mary). Or who could very well be one and the same -- seen as a 'brethren' of Jesus because they shared common family.

I certainly don't have a problem if you do not want to believe in a perpetual virginity. I think it's quite problematic to try to take the position that the Bible proves otherwise.

And how do you get 90? If he died in the 60's, that's about 30 years after Christ died.

James the brother of the Lord in patristic references. If Joseph was elderly the assumption is that his children would be older. Understand that the earliest references, and we do not have a
Aramaic issue here, all refer to him as a brother. It is a later developing traditon that says he was a step brother and then finally some who advocate for a cousin much much later.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Catholics are now allowed to register as Catholics?

No, the Baptist Board is no longer accepting Catholics, it is not all right to lie about your religion and church either just to get approved.

When it is found out that someone came in by lying on their application, they will be banned immediately.

I have an Orthodox friend who tried to register as an Orthodox Christian and was denied? What's up with that?

Must have been something wrong on his/her application. I don't think I know what an Orthodox Christian is...it could be anything. Is he/she Catholic?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

James the brother of the Lord in patristic references. If Joseph was elderly the assumption is that his children would be older. Understand that the earliest references, and we do not have a Aramaic issue here, all refer to him as a brother. It is a later developing traditon that says he was a step brother and then finally some who advocate for a cousin much much later.

Jesus had more brothers than just James and He had sisters too. The Scriptures do not lie. Please reread the ones I posted earlier. God would not go to the trouble of telling us Jesus had siblings and name them if it wasn't important.

I believe He did this so people would NOT idolize or enshrine Mary. She was human like the rest of us. She died like the rest of us will. She will stay dead until the time Christ comes back to collect His church. It is useless to say 'Hail Mary's'. She cannot hear you or help you.

We are taught how to pray in the Bible "The Lord's Prayer". No where in Scripture are we told to pray to Mary.

 

[DHK]

I always find it so interesting when people believe they can take a word and re-define it to have only one exclusive meaning and ignore what both the history and what the language says the word means. And then use their limited definition as the basis to judge others (which I would contend is indeed a form of idolatry in believing they have the ability or role of doing so).

Pray -- 1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Who is changing the rules?
1. The Bible either doesn't use definition #1, or rarely uses it.
2. Context always gives meaning.
3. As usual, Catholics try to slip out of this heretical error by saying that the definition can be #1, when they never use it in that sense. Totally illogical.

Since when is the word limited to definition #2? It certainly wasn’t in times past, when a person might say to another, “I pray thee grant my request”, when they were asking for a favor.

Obviously it is not used that way, when the context determines that it is not used that way. When the context says it is prayer, then prayer it is. Don't try to redefine words at your own whim. Hannah prayed to God in worship. It wasn't "I pray thee kind sir..." was it? The context was worship. She had gone up to the Temple to sacrifice and pray, and partake of the yearly feast. Context determines the meaning.

They were not ‘worshipping’ that person. It is certainly the context in which the usage “praying to the saints” originated in the early church.

Where it originated is not the point. Our point of reference is the Bible. That is our authority. Praying to the dead saints is sin, and always has been. It is worship. God alone is to be worshiped. An example of your "pray to":

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary mother of God (blasphemy),
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of our death, Amen."

Obviously this is not "I pray thee kind sir" type of statement is it?
It is clear adoration, worship, veneration, etc. It is the worship of a dead person, worship that belongs to God and Him alone.
1. Mary is unable to hear your prayers.
2. Mary is not omniscient nor omnipresent--attributes that belong to God alone. Thus you have made her a god. That is, out of a billion Catholics spread across every continent of this world praying this prayer (the rosary), how is it that Mary can hear and answer each prayer of every individual everywhere all over the world at the same time? She would have to be omnipresent to be everywhere to hear all those prayers, and omniscient to know what all those prayers are. You have made her a god, because only God has those attributes. This is worship that only belongs to God.
3. Mary is dead. Her spirit may be with the Lord. But the resurrection has not taken place. Your practice is no different than the eastern religions of Shintoism and Taoism who pray to their dead ancestors. The practice, as called in the Bible, is necromancy--praying to the dead.
4. Mary is not, and never was the mother of God. That is blasphemy. For that to be true Mary would have to have existed from all eternity. She did not. She is a created being.
5. Again, this is not a simple request. It is prayer; adoration.

I am sure

What? You have ESP? You can read the minds of early Christians?

it was the intent of those early Christians in the catacombs when they scribbled “Peter and Paul, pray for us” all over the walls to be making a humble request of Peter and Paul, not to worship them.

No, it wasn't. They were asking them to pray, as the church prayed for Peter in Acts 12. Again, context gives the definition of the word. But you ignore context don't you?

Yet some choose to pretend definition #1 does not exist, judge all others by definition #2, even when those people are clear they are speaking about definition #1, but please don’t confuse me with any facts.

And Catholics choose to ignore context, the very thing that defines the word. How convenient!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Looks like another one bit the dust...so much for open discussions...

So what exactly can we discuss, without the fear of being banned?

In XC
-

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

No promoting heretical doctrines.
No proselytizing.

Everything else is all right.

Could you answer my question about your friend please?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Could you answer my question about your friend please?

Sure, my friend is an Orthodox Christian, like myself, who registered as a Methodist back in 2006 and am now an Orthodox Christian, I even asked you how to change my profile to reflect such awhile back.

Anyway the Orthodox Church is Evangelical, but not Protestant. It’s Catholic, but not Roman. It’s Orthodox, but not Jewish. It’s not Non-Denominational, it’s Pre-Denominational. The Orthodox Church is believed, preserved, defended, taught and died for the faith of the Apostles for 2,000 years.

So to answer your question of is he “Catholic”, no, not in a “Roman Catholic” theological sense. To be blunt, an Orthodox Christian would look at Protestantism and Catholicism on the same side of the coin, since the Orthodox Church had no part in the Reformation.

Does that help?

In XC
-

 

[steaver]

Where it originated is not the point. Our point of reference is the Bible. That is our authority. Praying to the dead saints is sin, and always has been. It is worship. God alone is to be worshiped. An example of your "pray to":

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary mother of God (blasphemy),
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of our death, Amen."

Obviously this is not "I pray thee kind sir" type of statement is it?
It is clear adoration, worship, veneration, etc. It is the worship of a dead person, worship that belongs to God and Him alone.
1. Mary is unable to hear your prayers.
2. Mary is not omniscient nor omnipresent--attributes that belong to God alone. Thus you have made her a god. That is, out of a billion Catholics spread across every continent of this world praying this prayer (the rosary), how is it that Mary can hear and answer each prayer of every individual everywhere all over the world at the same time? She would have to be omnipresent to be everywhere to hear all those prayers, and omniscient to know what all those prayers are. You have made her a god, because only God has those attributes. This is worship that only belongs to God.
3. Mary is dead. Her spirit may be with the Lord. But the resurrection has not taken place. Your practice is no different than the eastern religions of Shintoism and Taoism who pray to their dead ancestors. The practice, as called in the Bible, is necromancy--praying to the dead.
4. Mary is not, and never was the mother of God. That is blasphemy. For that to be true Mary would have to have existed from all eternity. She did not. She is a created being.
5. Again, this is not a simple request. It is prayer; adoration.

I really pray you guys would not ban those who hold to some of these heretical doctrines. I learn SOO MUCH! ( sorry, I really wanted to emphasize raying: )

Just look at DHK's post above. He has nailed it! He has given an answer that is factual and irrefutable. I would like to see a Catholic try to refute this post.

I believe it is good to have these discussions and you can only truly have them with those who believe in these doctrines so you know exactly where they are coming from. I don't think they harm this board because this board has enough solid bible believing Christians on it that are well educated in putting down such heresies.

Just like the ban on MK. I don't see a problem with debating it. I think it is good to let it in and then blow holes all through it, thus helping babes in Christ here on this board learn and see the truth. I have a brother who is caught up in the MK thing so I have thoroughly studied it and know just how to defeat it at every turn.

DHK knows Catholicism inside and out. I enjoy learning how to defeat the heresies by watching threads such as these.

Sure we can teach each other about these heresies without them, but when you have one who actually is practicing the stuff it is soo much more enlightening. And when you see them unable to give answer you know the list sees it as well and is learning what is false and can be rebuked.

Please reconsider banning people or subjects over theology. God's Word will prevail over heresy. Just my thoughts. :jesus:

DHK had a great post, I wanted to see an answer to it!

 

[Betuel]

I really pray you guys would not ban those who hold to some of these heretical doctrines. I learn SOO MUCH! ( sorry, I really wanted to emphasize raying: )

Just look at DHK's post above. He has nailed it! He has given an answer that is factual and irrefutable. I would like to see a Catholic try to refute this post.

I believe it is good to have these discussions and you can only truly have them with those who believe in these doctrines so you know exactly where they are coming from. I don't think they harm this board because this board has enough solid bible believing Christians on it that are well educated in putting down such heresies.

Just like the ban on MK. I don't see a problem with debating it. I think it is good to let it in and then blow holes all through it, thus helping babes in Christ here on this board learn and see the truth. I have a brother who is caught up in the MK thing so I have thoroughly studied it and know just how to defeat it at every turn.

DHK knows Catholicism inside and out. I enjoy learning how to defeat the heresies by watching threads such as these.

Sure we can teach each other about these heresies without them, but when you have one who actually is practicing the stuff it is soo much more enlightening. And when you see them unable to give answer you know the list sees it as well and is learning what is false and can be rebuked.

Please reconsider banning people or subjects over theology. God's Word will prevail over heresy. Just my thoughts. :jesus:

DHK had a great post, I wanted to see an answer to it!

I agree, these posts are very helpful to see how to refute these heresies and DHK really knows his stuff. At the same time you can just see that even when showing them the truth with scripture they wont, dont, cant see the truth because their minds have been blinded. They dont come here because they want to know the truth, they just want to push and defend these heresies. Sad, all we can do is pray for them.

 

[Marcia]

I'm not sure how one can be adopted into a family and only be adopted by one parent? While I agree that Mary was both biologically and genetically the mother of Jesus -- was there not also spiritual motherhood involved? He was a human baby, a human child, a human person. Fully human would demand more than a biological mother, but a mother in the truest sense of the word.

Even if there is a spiritual motherhood (whatever that is), it was for Jesus, not us. We are not related to Mary in any way. Of course, the Bible does not speak of such "spiritual motherhood."

It has everything to do with Mary unless you are saying that you believe that we are separated from the body of Christ at death. Yet Scripture says that nothing, not even death can separate us from Christ. Paul does not divide the body into two -- those living here on earth, and those living in heaven. He says there is ONE body. Scripture refers to the "whole family" of God -- those living on earth and those living in heaven. Please provide any scripture that says those members of the family living in heaven no longer play a role in the one body of Christ.

Yes, nothing separates us from Christ because we are in Christ through faith and have a relationship to Him! We are separated from Mary by death, just as I am separated from my own mother by death, and my father, grandmother, etc.

And if Mary is family living in heaven, then she is my sister in Christ -- not my mother!!!!!

Of course we can pray directly to God. Who ever said we could not? Do we have to have others pray for us? No. But I fail to understand why some think the rules about that are different -- it's okay to have those living on earth pray for us, but not in heaven

Because there is no teaching or example of us asking dead people to pray for us!

Why is Mary in the picture today at all when she is dead and is in heaven like all other believers? I don't ask or expect my own mother to pray for me there! I simply pray through Jesus to God!

 

[Bro. James]

The resurrection of queen of heaven, queen mother, etc. may go all the way back to Nimrod's wife and her son. There is also a connection to the word Easter. It all boils to pagan idolatry. We are all guilty of idolatry, i.e. worshipping that which is false--it permeates its our beings--we think we can somehow work for our salvation.

Wrong answer.

Go to your closet, close the door, turn out the light, approach the throne of grace. The Lord will take care of it.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The resurrection of queen of heaven, queen mother, etc. may go all the way back to Nimrod's wife and her son. There is also a connection to the word Easter. It all boils to pagan idolatry. We are all guilty of idolatry, i.e. worshipping that which is false--it permeates its our beings--we think we can somehow work for our salvation.

Wrong answer.

Go to your closet, close the door, turn out the light, approach the throne of grace. The Lord will take care of it.

Selah,

Bro. James

Kind of pointless to argue with someone who isn't there to show the other side. Now everyone can pontificate (I chose that word because of the subject matter) about what they disagree about Mary veneration with out reply. Oh well. As far as this subject goes. There is no scriptural support that mary was assumed into heaven. The Catholics believe she didn't die but was assumed like Enoch. The Orthodox claim that she died and her body was lifted to heaven to avoid corruption (I could be wrong about this) but their take is different. Either way scriptures remain silent and these consepts can only come from tradition.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

No, the Baptist Board is no longer accepting Catholics

I have an idea!!!! Why doesn’t the application profile say that the Baptist Board doesn’t allow Catholics to sign-up as members in the first place?

Maybe if the BB is forth-right up front with its applicants (that Catholics aren’t allowed), maybe the BB wouldn’t have the issue of having to ban Catholics later and looking, well, hypocritical about it.

It really paints the BB in a not so pretty light...

In XC
-

 

[Bro. James]

I believe we have some common ground: the Latins and the Greeks got the Mariolatry from somewhere other than the Word of God. That puts us back to square one: sola scriptura is a pivotal doctrine. If our tradition is on an equal or higher level than scripture, everything becomes relative and changeable with every wind of doctrine. There can be no absolute final authority.

That does not wash!

Selah,

Bro. James