The Atonement;AW Pink

[Allan]

The High Priest wore 12 stones on his breatplate to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
Allan will you admit at this point that the high priest was not interceding for any of the non-covenant gentile nations at this point of redemptive history? You state that it was for "all Israel".
Do you agree on this,at least during the OT.period?

The answer is both yes AND no.
Yes it was for Israel alone.. but no in that any nation that so desire could come unto and into Israel and none were rejected.

So the atonement while being for Israel did not reflect that none could be apart of Israel if they desired. We must remember that God chose to 'work through' Israel and thus all that was done in them was illustrative of the work of Christ. While the atonement was for those 'of' Israel, that STILL included those who did not believe, were worshiping other gods, ect..

The question of whom the all Israel is will unfold several times in this study. I know that you and several other brothers and sisters here try to stress that the work of the cross was designed for every person who was ever born. I do not think this position can be maintained scripturally and that's where I think we can take time and re-examine this issue.

And I believe it is the most biblical view you can come to after one examines the scriptures.

For example when we interacted on the Eph5;25 discussion you said;


and this;
you said these things in post 29......then as I questioned you and you responded with this in post 32;

I agree that through faith we receive the work of Jesus on the cross!
However.....how do you say as you clearly have stated that Jesus takes away the sins of the unbelieving world? If they are not given grace and faith...how are their sins taken away?

Here you make an 2 unfounded assumptions:
1. that I think grace is not needed
2. that God must give a person faith

The first is not true.. it is by grace that God even looks toward us sinners and the very fact that He Himself reveals his spiritual truths to us establishes this grace so much the more since we could never come to these spiritual truths unless God IS by His grace is moving upon us. We deserve none of God kindness.

On the second.. no where in scripture will find scripture stating that God must 'give' man faith. It is a theological construct which says man must be given faith... example - like a boy being give a bicycle which he never had before.

Propitiation means to turn away the wrath of God. You say propitiation has been made for all! At the white throne judgement it will not be the love of God that the unbeliever receives.....but the wrath of God.......so why or in what way can you state that propitiation has been made for all,,,in any sense whatsoever?

And exactly in what sense has what I said contradicted what you just gave. that propitiation MUST BE RECEIVED BYE FAITH. Just because He 'is' the propitiation for all men does not in any sense mean that all men have the propitiation applied to them.

This inconsistency is not possible. Atonement and Propitiation are actual in scripture......not potential. This is a crucial pointon this topic

Yes.. that is your assumption.
Example - So when some in Israel was worshiping false gods and had idols set up in the high places.. and the atonement was made for the whole nation.. it was actual and all the nation was redeemed.. even those who did not repent and continued in that idol worship had their sin turned away.. I agree there is inconsistency here

Allan...[or anyone else ...are welcome] to try and explain how you see this view as possible. I believe God speaks in clear language on this.

I am.. and that is why I'm trying to get you to go back the Law to see for whom the atonement was made. Christ had to fulfill the entire Law.. including the law of atonement in order for it to acceptable to God. Unless we go back there and identify not only 'what' it does for those who believe.. but also for whom it was made.. we continue to find holes that need addressing.

 

[kyredneck]

The Rite

Two goats were procured, similar in respect of appearance, height, cost, and time of selection. Haying one of these on his right and the other on his left (Rashi on Yoma 39a), the high priest, who was assisted in this rite by two subordinates, put both his hands into a wooden case, and took out two labels, oneinscribed "for the Lord" and the other "for Azazel." The high priest then laid his hands with the labels upon the two goats and said, "A sin-offering to the Lord"—using the Tetragrammaton; and the two men accompanying him replied, "Blessed be the name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever." He then fastened a scarlet woolen thread to the head of the goat "for Azazel"; and laying his hands upon it again, recited the following confession of sin and prayer for forgiveness: "O Lord, I have acted iniquitously, trespassed, sinned before Thee: I, my household, and the sons of Aaron—Thy holy ones. O Lord, forgive the iniquities, transgressions, and sins that I, my household, and Aaron's children—Thy holy people—committed before Thee, as is written in the law of Moses, Thy servant, 'for on this day He will forgive you, to cleanse you from all your sins before the Lord; ye shall be clean.'" This prayer was responded to by the congregation present (see Atonement, Day of). A man was selected, preferably a priest, to take the goat to the precipice in the wilderness; and he was accompanied part of the way by the most eminent men of Jerusalem. Ten booths had been constructed at intervals along the road leading from Jerusalem to the steep mountain. At each one of these the man leading the goat was formally offered food and drink, which he, however, refused. When he reached the tenth booth those who accompanied him proceeded no further, but watched the ceremony from a distance. When he came to the precipice he divided the scarlet thread into two parts, one of which he tied to the rock and the other to the goat's horns, and then pushed the goat down (Yoma vi. 1-8). The cliff was so high and rugged that before the goat had traversed half the distance to the plain below, its limbs were utterly shattered. Men were stationed at intervals along the way, and as soon as the goat was thrown down the precipice, they signaled to one another by means of kerchiefs or flags, until the information reached the high priest, whereat he proceeded with the other parts of the ritual.

The scarlet thread was a symbolical reference to Isa. i. 18; and the Talmud tells us (ib. 39a) that during the forty years that Simon the Just was high priest, the thread actually turned white as soon as the goat was thrown over the precipice: a sign that the sins of the people were forgiven. In later times the change to white was not invariable: a proof of the people's moral and spiritual deterioration, that was gradually on the increase, until forty years before the destruction of the Second Temple, when the change of color was no longer observed (l.c. 39b).J


Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz13Jf4v4bA


The goat was led away to a rocky mount and was killed in public view. Our Lord was led away in like fashion to Golgotha, a rocky mount and was lifted up and slain so all could see.

DB, would you agree that this was a tradition that was non-scriptural?

 

[DixieBoy]

DB, would you agree that this was a tradition that was non-scriptural?

It is like the song "Tradition, tradition! Tradition!" from the movie "Fiddler on the Roof." :smilewinkgrin: Yes, it is only tradition. For me it is a none salvational issue. It was interesting so, thought I would share.

 

[kyredneck]

I come from a background of observance of the DOA (Day of Atonement.) .........

Just curious, are you Jewish?

 

[Iconoclast]

Reconciliation is one of the many effects or fruits of Christ’s Atonement, but was not part of the work He did. Many others have failed to distinguish between the Atonement of Christ and the Redemption which is one of its fruits. It is vitally important to distinguish between what Christ did and that which has resulted therefrom. To understand what He did, let us now attempt to define the nature of His Atonement.

1. IT WAS A FEDERAL WORK By the term “federal” we mean that there was an official oneness existing between the Mediator and those for whom He mediated, or in simpler language, that there is a legal union between Christ and His people.

The relation between Christ and those who benefit from His Atonement was, therefore, no vague, indefinite, haphazard one, but consisted of an actual covenant oneness, legal identity, vital union. Suretyship presupposes it. Strict substitution demands it. Real imputation proceeds upon it. The penalty Christ endured could not otherwise have been inflicted. They for whom Satisfaction was made do, by inevitable necessity, share its benefits and receive what was purchased for them.

The law, as a covenant of life, was accompanied by two sanctions.

First , the promise of “life” or Divine favor and eternal well-being, conditioned upon perfect obedience: see Leviticus 18:5; Matthew 19:17; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:12.

Second , the penalty of “death” suspended on disobedience. Now the object for which Christ became incarnate was “that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us” ( Romans 8:4), and therefore is Christ declared to be “the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” ( Romans 10:4).

And this was only made possible by His fulfilling all the law’s conditions.


Third , we have shown that the work of Christ was penal in its character.
Because He took our law place, the curse of the law must fall upon Him. Because He was “made sin” for us, the sword of Divine justice must smite Him. As 1 Corinthians 15:3 declares, the God- man not only died “for us,” but “Christ died for our sins,” which was only made possible by our sins having been federally placed upon Him.

4. IT WAS A SACRIFICIAL WORK
Ere attempting to define the character of Christ’s sacrifice, let us first remind ourselves that He presented Himself a sacrifice to God by covenant agreement. As we are told in Romans 3:25, “Whom God hath foreordained a propitiation through faith in his blood.”

God can be pleased only with that which He has appointed. The Everlasting Covenant furnishes the key to many a verse of Scripture. For instance, when Christ was about to go to the Cross, He said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified” ( John 13:31).

But how could that be? Was it not rather His degradation? No, for the eternal Three had assigned to the God man the work of mediation, and that was a high honor. So the Son of man viewed it. It is our “glory” too to bow to God’s will and keep His appointments.

 

[zrs6v4]

On the second.. no where in scripture will find scripture stating that God must 'give' man faith. It is a theological construct which says man must be given faith... example - like a boy being give a bicycle which he never had before.

Romans 12:3, "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

In this verse it shows that God has given "believers" each a different measure of faith. If God is in control of their measure of faith, then how much more was He in control of the faith given to them unto salvation? God was in control of the faith that a person first exercised and remains in control of the faith they have during their sanctification. This is done according to His sovereign will.

Philippians 1:29, "For you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake..."

In my understanding this verses plainly says that God has granted us the gift of Belief in Christ and suffering.

2 Timothy 2:25, "With all gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will."

First, God grants repentance through our correction and gentleness. Second, when God initiates/causes repentance it is effected by them gaining a knowledge of truth. Third, when God grants and people come to the heart understanding they then come to their senses and escape the ways of Satan. The point is that God gives it in some way. I don't think He just places it in someones soul like a time card, but I think His giving it to someone is a work within them that ultimately and effectually helps them to understand and trust God through newfound eyes.



Wisdom comes from God (James 3:17) as a gift. Faith is a result of wisdom. Those who are first wise and have the knowledge of wisdom express that by faith. I don't know that it is possible to have true faith without wisdom. To me wisdom comes from understanding of the Lord or fear of the Lord, as does knowledge (Proverbs 1:7, 9:10)

Those just popped in my head so I'll let you respond before I attempt to think further.

 

[percho]

This question would fall into category 11 – Typification. What/who does Azazel represent? I'm for real curious to hear other's thoughts/knowledge on this.

7 And he shall take the two goats, and set them before Jehovah at the door of the tent of meeting.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for Jehovah, and the other lot for Azazel.
9 And Aaron shall present the goat upon which the lot fell for Jehovah, and offer him for a sin-offering.
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before Jehovah, to make atonement for him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness.
26 And he that letteth go the goat for Azazel shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp. Lev 16

I believe this is the only mention of Azazel in the scriptures.[/QUOTE

Not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world. Passover Lamb

How many would/could come to the Lord if none were deceived.

Azazel = Satan

 

[Luke2427]

I like many things Pink teaches and is very wise. I am not a hyper pink or a hyper anything. I believe the Scripture over men. I agree He secured a people that was
already His, but also included with them those who have heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. It is awesome that God will include a dog like me begging at the table. Praise God through Jesus.

I suppose the idea that some of you guys keep peddling is that Calvinists do not believe the Scriptures- rather they believe men.

The amusing thing about that is that the doctrine of sola scriptura came from calvinists.

 

[Iconoclast]

A. CHRIST’S SACRIFICE WAS A RANSOMING ONE
More specifically yet, the offering of Himself a ransom for us, and to His bearing the curse of the law in our stead, and the design and effects of this ransom-paying, curse bearing sacrifice of His, that He redeems us from the curse of the law. It is not any kind of a sacrifice, but a ransom paying, curse-bearing sacrifice. It is not any kind of redemption, but a sacrificial redemption” (A. A. Hodge).

That the sacrifice of Christ was a ransoming one is clear, first, from Matthew 20:28, “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

Christ gave His life a “ransom for many”: the Greek preposition is “and” which, except in the few instances where it means “against,” is always used in a substitutionary sense. His life was not “given” in any vague, indefinite way for the good of others, but was a specific quid pro quo, dying in the very room of His people. The “many” is in contrast from the one life. “The church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood” ( Acts 20:28).

The prominent idea of “ransom” is that of payment, of vicarious substitution, of one thing standing in the place of another.

 

[Iconoclast]

First , we have shown that the work of Christ was federal in its character: that is, Christ became legally one of His people. He came here not to strangers, but to His “brethren” ( Hebrews 2:12). He came here not to procure a people for Himself, but to secure a people already His ( Ephesians 1:4; Matthew 1:21).

Second , we have shown that the work of Christ was vicarious in its character. Substitution has been thus defined: “A ‘substitute’ is one who does or suffers the same thing which the person or persons for whom he is substituted would have done or suffered.”

Third , we have shown that the work of Christ was penal in its character.

This follows of inevitable necessity. In becoming one with His criminal people, Christ entered their law place before God. In acting as the Substitute of His people, Christ must receive that which was due them from God.


Christ gave His life a “ransom for many”: the Greek preposition is “and” which, except in the few instances where it means “against,” is always used in a substitutionary sense. His life was not “given” in any vague, indefinite way for the good of others, but was a specific quid pro quo, dying in the very room of His people. The “many” is in contrast from the one life. “The church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood” ( Acts 20:28).

D. CHRIST’S SACRIFICE WAS AN EXPIATORY ONE The whole of Christ’s humiliation and suffering from His birth to the Cross were invested with a priestly and sacrificial character, as constituting His once-offering up of Himself a sacrifice, as propitiatory of God and expiatory of His people’s sins;

 

[Iconoclast]

This was the grand design of the Trinity: that the God man should thus be glorified. 3. THAT GOD’S ELECT MIGHT BE SAVED “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost” ( Luke 19:10).

How different is this plain, positive and unqualified statement from the tale which nearly all preachers tell today! The story of the vast majority is that Christ came here to make salvation possible for sinners: He has done His part, now they must do theirs. To reduce the wondrous, finished, and glorious work of Christ to a merely making salvation possible is most dishonoring and insulting to Him.

Christ came here to carry into effect God’s sovereign purpose of election, to save a people already “His” ( Matthew 1:21) by covenant settlement.

There are a people whom God hath “from the beginning chosen unto salvation” ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13), and redemption was in order to the accomplishing of that decree.

 

[Iconoclast]

Fourth , the end in view of Christ’s substitutionary sufferings was to bring His people to God. This was only possible by the removal of their sins, which separated them from the thrice Holy One: Isaiah 59:2. By His sufferings Christ has procured for us access to God. “But in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ” ( Ephesians 2:13). “That he might bring us to God” is the most comprehensive expression used in Scripture for stating the design of Christ’s Satisfaction. It includes the bringing of His people out of darkness into marvelous light: out of a state of alienation, misery and wrath, into one of grace, peace and eternal communion with God. By nature they were in a state of enmity, but Christ has reconciled them by His death: Romans 5:10. By nature they were “children of wrath” ( Ephesians 2:3), obnoxious to God’s judicial displeasure; but by grace they have been accepted into His favor: Romans 5:2. By nature they were spiritual lepers, but by one offering Christ hath “perfected forever them that are sanctified” ( Hebrews 10:14).

 

[Iconoclast]

Hath He “from the beginning chosen us unto salvation”? ( Thessalonians 2:13) Then saved we must be. Hath He “predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will”? ( Ephesians 1:5) Then that will must be fulfilled. God’s purpose is immutable ( Hebrews 6:17), invincible ( Psalm 2:6), triumphant ( Isaiah 14:26,27). Before there can be the slightest failure in the accomplishment of the Divine design in the Atonement of Christ, God must cease to be! But this is impossible. 2. THE COVENANT OF GOD Now it is obviously impossible to have any clear views of what the Lord Jesus died to achieve, if we have no real knowledge of the Eternal Agreement between the Father and the Son in fulfillment of which His death took place. Yet, today, deplorable to say, even the great majority of those considered evangelical — to mention no others — have scarcely any such knowledge. The very fact that that Covenant was proposed, accepted and drawn up before the foundation of the world, proves beyond all shadow of doubt that it was unconditional so far as man is concerned, for he then had no existence! Therefore he cannot be a party to it, even though his eternal well-being is the object of it.

 

[webdog]

Iconoclast, why did you stop your discussion with Allan (post 21)?

 

[psalms109:31]

Atonement

I like a lot of what pink teaches. I don't agree with his interpentation of all, he tries to fit it into his doctrine God tells us we shouldn't be fighting over words for it doesn't benifit anyone. See Paul starts off his letter with we should make peace with everyone because why because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and then he goes on and say's that he isn't lying. Why, because I believe people didn't believe him back then. Those who misunderstood what he was teaching as Peter warns us about.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, why did you stop your discussion with Allan (post 21)?

Hello Webdog,
I enjoy the interaction with fellow believers on the BB. It is not my purpose to harm or make a personal attack on anyone whom Jesus has purchased.
In post 19 I asked some important questions that Idid not feel were really responded to adequately.

I agree that through faith we receive the work of Jesus on the cross!
However.....how do you say as you clearly have stated that Jesus takes away the sins of the unbelieving world? If they are not given grace and faith...how are their sins taken away?
Propitiation means to turn away the wrath of God. You say propitiation has been made for all! At the white throne judgement it will not be the love of God that the unbeliever receives.....but the wrath of God.......so why or in what way can you state that propitiation has been made for all,,,in any sense whatsoever?

This inconsistency is not possible. Atonement and Propitiation are actual in scripture......not potential. This is a crucial pointon this topic



This inconsistency is not possible. Atonement and Propitiation are actual in scripture......not potential. This is a crucial pointon this topic

Allan...[or anyone else ...are welcome] to try and explain how you see this view as possible. I believe God speaks in clear language on this.
Let me know what verses you think show your view better.I have stated up front that at this point I have a definate point of view[1689 confessional position] is the closest summary of where I stand biblically.

Allan did offer somewhat of a response. I felt he changed the force of the questions....and so became non responsive.Unless these questions are dealt with....I think we are not really going to progress on this topic.
I posted a link to Pink's book that i think show's step by step how God's design comes to pass. I am skipping through posting what I believe are key sections that will cause the reader to consider the eternal covenant of God,made with the elect.

here are those questions again;

how do you say as you clearly have stated that Jesus takes away the sins of the unbelieving world? If they are not given grace and faith...how are their sins taken away?

Propitiation means to turn away the wrath of God. You say propitiation has been made for all! At the white throne judgement it will not be the love of God that the unbeliever receives.....but the wrath of God.......so why or in what way can you state that propitiation has been made for all,,,in any sense whatsoever?

This inconsistency is not possible. Atonement and Propitiation are actual in scripture......not potential. This is a crucial point on this topic

In what way has sin been dealt with for those who remain dead in Adam?

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Faith comes to us through the words of Jesus, Since it is comes from Jesus it is given to us by God. To put it simple we are then saved by grace through this Faith from those who take it. This faith did not come from from us we didn't wake up one day and have it. We got it when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. Faith is a noun and it is the words of Jesus, believe to trust in Jesus is a verb and it is what we do.

We are saved by grace because the requirement for our sin is death not faith, but what our faith teaches us it is Jesus who paid our debt.

 

[webdog]

Allan did offer somewhat of a response. I felt he changed the force of the questions....and so became non responsive.Unless these questions are dealt with....I think we are not really going to progress on this topic.

I don't see it. He pointed out the assumption man has to be given "saving faith". He also pointed out the application of the atonement is what saves, not the atonement in itself. Isn't it your position Christ's atonement purchased the elect apart from faith?

how do you say as you clearly have stated that Jesus takes away the sins of the unbelieving world? If they are not given grace and faith...how are their sins taken away?

God's wrath against sin has been appeased. God's sin against the sinner is appeased once the atonement is applied. Follow up question...do you believe a finite man can repay an infinite God for an infinite transgression made against Him...and how? Since man is not eternal to begin with, spending the rest of eternity in hell paying for their sin leaves God eternally unpaid...unless...someone who is eternal can pay that fine. Guess who

Propitiation means to turn away the wrath of God. You say propitiation has been made for all! At the white throne judgement it will not be the love of God that the unbeliever receives.....but the wrath of God.......so why or in what way can you state that propitiation has been made for all,,,in any sense whatsoever?

This inconsistency is not possible. Atonement and Propitiation are actual in scripture......not potential. This is a crucial point on this topic

You asked a question, then say the answer you will receive is inconsistent and not possible. Logically, is it really possible to answer your question given this?

I thought Allan's post 21 also went into greater detail answering what you were looking for...

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't see it. He pointed out the assumption man has to be given "saving faith". He also pointed out the application of the atonement is what saves, not the atonement in itself. Isn't it your position Christ's atonement purchased the elect apart from faith?
God's wrath against sin has been appeased. God's sin against the sinner is appeased once the atonement is applied. Follow up question...do you believe a finite man can repay an infinite God for an infinite transgression made against Him...and how? Since man is not eternal to begin with, spending the rest of eternity in hell paying for their sin leaves God eternally unpaid...unless...someone who is eternal can pay that fine. Guess who
You asked a question, then say the answer you will receive is inconsistent and not possible. Logically, is it really possible to answer your question given this?

I thought Allan's post 21 also went into greater detail answering what you were looking for...

Hello WD,

Let me attempt to clarify.

I don't see it. He pointed out the assumption man has to be given "saving faith".

The question I asked had nothing to do with faith,or my assumption.
The question I asked was in response to Allans claim that God has "taken away" the sins of the "whole world". How does God take away sin?

The wages of sin is death.The sinner must pay eternally in the second death,as you point out WD....unpaid sin is eternally punished it can never be paid by the sinner...that is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

When Jesus dies a covenant death for those given to Him by the Father...he actually accomplishes their redemption.....he does not try to do it..He does it all. He saves [not makes savable,but fails to save] His sheep...not the goats.
Jn10:26 10:27.
As far as faith goes.Faith is an instrumentality.It lays hold of Christ.
We do not have saving faith in and of ourselves..it is a gift of God because it is produced in us by The Spirit of God. eph2:1`-10. [allan does not agree]
Saving faith is always said to be..by or through faith.
Never because of faith. When we excercise saving faith and repentance,it is because God has given,or graced us with it. i will post a link dealing with this topic of faith later on.
then this;

He also pointed out the application of the atonement is what saves, not the atonement in itself.

The atonement is not done in a vacuum,or randomly, or to no purpose.
It was an covenant atonement with a multitude of ordained persons in mind.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

as many as were ordained to eternal life believed...no more, no less

9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city

The Lord tells Paul...for I have much people in the city...he knew those who are His...it is not wide open,he knows. We do not know so we preach to all men everywhere,as Jesus tells us to.

Wd you asked this;

Isn't it your position Christ's atonement purchased the elect apart from faith?

No. Christ has purchased the right to the whole field on the cross'all the earth is mine".
The Father has given Him power or authority over all flesh.Jn17;1-3
However,Hebrews 2:9-16 tells us who he intercedes for...the seed of Abraham, ie all who are in Christ,Gal3:16-29...it is the same in Jn 6:37-44.

When we bring the gospel we can be confident that Jesus has died to save sinners. No sinner seeks God.psalm 14...rom3.....Jesus seeks and saves His sheep.....not the goats. He is going to save everyone he has purposed to save,not one of them will be lost,not one.

Webdog...you then say this???

God's wrath against sin has been appeased.

In what way???This is the big question. A Holy God has to punish all sin.
He has not suspended His just wrath at all,outside of Jesus.
Only in Jesus is sin paid in full.In the day of Noah....you had to be in the ark when the wrath poured down on the ungodly world. sin ans sinners outside the ark were condemned.
In our day a sinner is only safe...in Jesus. God's wrath burns hot against the sinner and His sin today as we speak if they are not in Jesus savingly.

You asked a question, then say the answer you will receive is inconsistent and not possible. Logically, is it really possible to answer your question given this?

That was part of a quote...but as I just said
propitiation is only propitiation when the wrath is turned away.Romans 1 says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven,,,,,not turned away in any sense.
Unless the propitiation is accomplished and applied..it is no propitiation.
Thats why I say the other idea is biblically inconsistent,and not possible.
Take some time and work through Pink. see how it pieces together biblically.
Lord willing i will add some Hugh martin,Owen,and Murray later on.

Webdog, I am confident that you and Allan are serving the Lord and attempting to win the lost.I count you as a brother, not an enemy.
I think I have truth here and feel as if we can walk more in the truth our gospel witness will be strengthened.
I believe the bible teaching that is called calvinism,,,long before I knew or read anything about calvin or arminius.
I believe Jesus in JN 6:37-44 and Jn 10 before I came to see some have trouble with these teachings. Thanks for your good questions:thumbsup:

 

[psalms109:31]

Unbelief

Some people have lifter their own self higher than they ought to and trying to convince themselves they are not, but lifting God up. Some are just olive branches that were included with those chosen before the foundation of the world when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. The one’s who were chosen before the foundation of the world is Jews, but as the scripture tells us those that were cut out was for unbelief, not because they are not chosen. That God will keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord and yes praise God these ordained will believe. God ordained satan for this, but we know where he ended up.

Ezekiel 28:
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

So don’t be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare these natural branches He will not spare us either. It is the work of God that we believe and it starts of with trusting in Him, because we know those who listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus will come. Those who trust in Jesus are ordained to believe. We have to trust in Jesus to listen and learn to know what to believe, so it is the work of God for us to believe