The Atonement;AW Pink

[percho]

How about the atonement brought about by Jesus's faith is his blood therefore God set forth him a mercy seat that we might be saved?

Young's 2 Tim 3:15 and because from a babe the Holy Writings thou hast known, which are able to make thee wise -- to salvation, through faith that in Christ Jesus;

 

[Iconoclast]

All of the Three Divine persons concurred in the terms and arrangements of the Everlasting Covenant. It is the special work of the Spirit to make effectual unto the souls of God’s elect the gracious purpose of the Father and the meritorious purchase of the Son. That which Christ did for His people, the Spirit stands pledged to make good in them. The Holy Spirit has been sent here to free those captives for whose liberty Christ paid the Father the ransom-price. This the Father promised His Son on condition of His performing the work assigned Him. It needs to be steadily borne in mind that “all the promises in Him [i.e. in Christ] are yea, and in him amen” ( 2 Corinthians 1:20), and therefore that the promises made to Christ’s seed, recorded in Scripture, are but the transcripts of the promises which God first made to their Head-cf. Titus 1:2! Let such passages as Isaiah 44:3; Ezekiel 36:25-27; Joel 2:18 be read in that light. “Salvation is of the Lord” ( Jonah 2:9), entirely so, from beginning to end. It is God’s “great salvation,” in its origination, in its effectuation, in its application and in its consummation. Man contributes nothing to it whatsoever.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now Christ, as Mediator, obtained for Himself a right to all the elect: “All mine are thine, and thine are mine” ( John 17:10). They are His “peculiar people” ( Titus 2:14). Thus, at God’s appointed hour Christ is entitled to claim each of them for Himself. This right He exercises. “When, according to the determinate counsel of God, the time of the gracious visitation of every one of the elect is come, He actually delivers them, as His property, by an outstretched arm. And why should He not, seeing He can easily effect it by the power of the Holy Spirit, turning and inclining their heart? Is it credible that He should suffer those who are His lawful right, to be, to remain, the slaves of Satan? Shall He suffer any of those to perish whom He purchased for His own possession by His precious blood? Christ Himself has taught us thus to reason: ‘Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice’ ( John 10:16). Because these sheep were of right His property, it therefore becomes Him actually to lay hold of them as His own, and bring them into His fold” (H. Witsius). This is done by the Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

The leading difference between the influence of His death, and that of His intercession, unto our salvation, is this: the one was the means of procuring or obtaining it for us, the other the means of securing and applying it unto us. Christ purchased salvation by the one, but we are possessed of it by the other. It was not until Christ was “perfected through suffering” that He became “the Author [or “applying cause”] of eternal salvation” ( Hebrews 5:7). The two things were united at the cross: “He bore the sins of many and made intercession for the transgressors” ( Isaiah 53:12). That while the death of Christ procured our salvation, it did not (of itself) secure it, seems very evident from 1 Corinthians 15:17: “If Christ be not raised your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins.”

Those for whom Christ intercedes are they whose sin He bore ( Isaiah 53:12), namely, those given to Him by the Father ( John 17:9). That for which He intercedes is what He purchased for them by His Satisfaction, namely, “eternal redemption” ( Hebrews 9:12), which includes the gift of the Holy Spirit to apply unto them all the virtues of His perfect work.

 

[Iconoclast]

Second , the success of Christ’s intercession is fully assured by the fact that He sues only for that which is agreeable to His Father, and therefore is the Father entirely ready to grant His requests. He pleads for nothing but what is according to the will of God: Hebrews 10:7-9.

Third , the success of Christ’s intercession is fully assured because it is a commemoration of His sacrifice. That which Christ pleads before God is His own blood, which is “precious” in His sight.

Fourth , the success of Christ’s intercession is fully assured by the fact that He is the Beloved of the Father. In Him the Father is so well pleased that He can deny Him naught that He asks. Christ Himself declared, “Thou hearest me always” ( John 11:42).

Finally, the success of Christ’s intercession is fully assured by the fact that nothing, in, of, from, or by His people can possibly countervail it. “Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them” ( Hebrews 7:25).

 

[Iconoclast]

All of the Three Divine persons concurred in the terms and arrangements of the Everlasting Covenant. It is the special work of the Spirit to make effectual unto the souls of God’s elect the gracious purpose of the Father and the meritorious purchase of the Son. That which Christ did for His people, the Spirit stands pledged to make good in them. The Holy Spirit has been sent here to free those captives for whose liberty Christ paid the Father the ransom-price. This the Father promised His Son on condition of His performing the work assigned Him. It needs to be steadily borne in mind that “all the promises in Him [i.e. in Christ] are yea, and in him amen” ( 2 Corinthians 1:20), and therefore that the promises made to Christ’s seed, recorded in Scripture, are but the transcripts of the promises which God first made to their Head-cf. Titus 1:2! Let such passages as Isaiah 44:3; Ezekiel 36:25-27; Joel 2:18 be read in that light. “Salvation is of the Lord” ( Jonah 2:9), entirely so, from beginning to end. It is God’s “great salvation,” in its origination, in its effectuation, in its application and in its consummation. Man contributes nothing to it whatsoever. All the Trinity are concerned and engaged in it. The Father is the Author of salvation from sin, Christ the Purchaser, the Spirit the Conveyor. It is the Father who begets the elect ( James 1:17,18); yet, they are declared to be the “seed” of Christ ( Isaiah 53:10), while they are “born” of the Spirit ( John 3:6). Though it has many aspects, and may be considered from various angles, nevertheless, it is one and the same salvation. It is the third aspect of it we are here contemplating, namely, the Satisfaction of Christ made efficacious by the infallible application thereof to God’s elect.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now Christ, as Mediator, obtained for Himself a right to all the elect: “All mine are thine, and thine are mine” ( John 17:10). They are His “peculiar people” ( Titus 2:14). Thus, at God’s appointed hour Christ is entitled to claim each of them for Himself. This right He exercises. “When, according to the determinate counsel of God, the time of the gracious visitation of every one of the elect is come, He actually delivers them, as His property, by an outstretched arm. And why should He not, seeing He can easily effect it by the power of the Holy Spirit, turning and inclining their heart? Is it credible that He should suffer those who are His lawful right, to be, to remain, the slaves of Satan? Shall He suffer any of those to perish whom He purchased for His own possession by His precious blood? Christ Himself has taught us thus to reason: ‘Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice’ ( John 10:16). Because these sheep were of right His property, it therefore becomes Him actually to lay hold of them as His own, and bring them into His fold” (H. Witsius). This is done by the Spirit.

To sum up this point. The coming of the Spirit in regenerating power to God’s elect is both a Covenant-promise and an Atonement-purchase. The cause of the Spirit’s working is jointly from the Father and the Son. Only as this is maintained do we ascribe the glory which belongs to both by virtue of the Spirit’s operations. The Spirit works from the Father’s decree ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13), and the Son’s redemption; in other words, He is sent to effectuate what was determined upon in the Everlasting Covenant

 

[Allan]

I don't understand why you keep posting this stuff and wont actually debate what is directly relational to your postings.

Many of us have been dealing with this stuff for years (as in debating and showing how much of these views are biblically incorrect).

Seriously.. take time and deal with the issues that have already been laid out.
If you don't but continue to keep moving on, then everything after that, seems to be nothing more than mere deflection brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't understand why you keep posting this stuff and wont actually debate what is directly relational to your postings.

Many of us have been dealing with this stuff for years (as in debating and showing how much of these views are biblically incorrect).

Seriously.. take time and deal with the issues that have already been laid out.
If you don't but continue to keep moving on, then everything after that, seems to be nothing more than mere deflection brother.

Hello Allan,
Good to hear from you.Sorry i missed some time on here...was in the hospital for 4-5 days rehabing a back injury. The last time you posted was post 21......webdog jumped in when i was in hospital and asked why i stopped with you.....i responded to him and you in posts 36 and 39.
I think you mis-understood what I was asking you. So I was not sure if you took offence to what I said.....I am not here to hurt or harm anyone who are brothers in Christ.

Allan I will not avoid or deflect anything intentionally, in case you missed it in post 39 here is what my response was in part

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
I don't see it. He pointed out the assumption man has to be given "saving faith". He also pointed out the application of the atonement is what saves, not the atonement in itself. Isn't it your position Christ's atonement purchased the elect apart from faith?
God's wrath against sin has been appeased. God's sin against the sinner is appeased once the atonement is applied. Follow up question...do you believe a finite man can repay an infinite God for an infinite transgression made against Him...and how? Since man is not eternal to begin with, spending the rest of eternity in hell paying for their sin leaves God eternally unpaid...unless...someone who is eternal can pay that fine. Guess who
You asked a question, then say the answer you will receive is inconsistent and not possible. Logically, is it really possible to answer your question given this?

I thought Allan's post 21 also went into greater detail answering what you were looking for...

Hello WD,

Let me attempt to clarify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
I don't see it. He pointed out the assumption man has to be given "saving faith".

The question I asked had nothing to do with faith,or my assumption.
The question I asked was in response to Allans claim that God has "taken away" the sins of the "whole world". How does God take away sin?

The wages of sin is death.The sinner must pay eternally in the second death,as you point out WD....unpaid sin is eternally punished it can never be paid by the sinner...that is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

When Jesus dies a covenant death for those given to Him by the Father...he actually accomplishes their redemption.....he does not try to do it..He does it all. He saves [not makes savable,but fails to save] His sheep...not the goats.
Jn10:26 10:27.
As far as faith goes.Faith is an instrumentality.It lays hold of Christ.
We do not have saving faith in and of ourselves..it is a gift of God because it is produced in us by The Spirit of God. eph2:1`-10. [allan does not agree]
Saving faith is always said to be..by or through faith.
Never because of faith. When we excercise saving faith and repentance,it is because God has given,or graced us with it. i will post a link dealing with this topic of faith later on.
then this;

Quote:
He also pointed out the application of the atonement is what saves, not the atonement in itself.

The atonement is not done in a vacuum,or randomly, or to no purpose.
It was an covenant atonement with a multitude of ordained persons in mind.

Quote:
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


as many as were ordained to eternal life believed...no more, no less

Quote:
9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city

The Lord tells Paul...for I have much people in the city...he knew those who are His...it is not wide open,he knows. We do not know so we preach to all men everywhere,as Jesus tells us to.

Wd you asked this;

Quote:
Isn't it your position Christ's atonement purchased the elect apart from faith?

No. Christ has purchased the right to the whole field on the cross'all the earth is mine".
The Father has given Him power or authority over all flesh.Jn17;1-3
However,Hebrews 2:9-16 tells us who he intercedes for...the seed of Abraham, ie all who are in Christ,Gal3:16-29...it is the same in Jn 6:37-44.

When we bring the gospel we can be confident that Jesus has died to save sinners. No sinner seeks God.psalm 14...rom3.....Jesus seeks and saves His sheep.....not the goats. He is going to save everyone he has purposed to save,not one of them will be lost,not one.

Webdog...you then say this???

Quote:
God's wrath against sin has been appeased.

In what way???This is the big question. A Holy God has to punish all sin.
He has not suspended His just wrath at all,outside of Jesus.
Only in Jesus is sin paid in full.In the day of Noah....you had to be in the ark when the wrath poured down on the ungodly world. sin ans sinners outside the ark were condemned.
In our day a sinner is only safe...in Jesus. God's wrath burns hot against the sinner and His sin today as we speak if they are not in Jesus savingly.

Quote:
You asked a question, then say the answer you will receive is inconsistent and not possible. Logically, is it really possible to answer your question given this?


That was part of a quote...but as I just said
propitiation is only propitiation when the wrath is turned away.Romans 1 says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven,,,,,not turned away in any sense.
Unless the propitiation is accomplished and applied..it is no propitiation.
Thats why I say the other idea is biblically inconsistent,and not possible.
Take some time and work through Pink. see how it pieces together biblically.
Lord willing i will add some Hugh martin,Owen,and Murray later on.

Webdog, I am confident that you and Allan are serving the Lord and attempting to win the lost.I count you as a brother, not an enemy.
I think I have truth here and feel as if we can walk more in the truth our gospel witness will be strengthened.
I believe the bible teaching that is called calvinism,,,long before I knew or read anything about calvin or arminius.
I believe Jesus in JN 6:37-44 and Jn 10 before I came to see some have trouble with these teachings. Thanks for your good questions

ps. you must be very busy at work now?/

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,
Good to hear from you.Sorry i missed some time on here...was in the hospital for 4-5 days rehabing a back injury. The last time you posted was post 21......webdog jumped in when i was in hospital and asked why i stopped with you.....i responded to him and you in posts 36 and 39.
I think you mis-understood what I was asking you. So I was not sure if you took offence to what I said.....I am not here to hurt or harm anyone who are brothers in Christ.

Allan I will not avoid or deflect anything intentionally, in case you missed it in post 39 here is what my response was in part

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
I don't see it. He pointed out the assumption man has to be given "saving faith". He also pointed out the application of the atonement is what saves, not the atonement in itself. Isn't it your position Christ's atonement purchased the elect apart from faith?
God's wrath against sin has been appeased. God's sin against the sinner is appeased once the atonement is applied. Follow up question...do you believe a finite man can repay an infinite God for an infinite transgression made against Him...and how? Since man is not eternal to begin with, spending the rest of eternity in hell paying for their sin leaves God eternally unpaid...unless...someone who is eternal can pay that fine. Guess who
You asked a question, then say the answer you will receive is inconsistent and not possible. Logically, is it really possible to answer your question given this?

I thought Allan's post 21 also went into greater detail answering what you were looking for...

Hello WD,

Let me attempt to clarify.


ps. you must be very busy at work now?/

No.. I wasn't offended
And I wasn't meaning to sound argumentative in post, so if I was I apologize.
I stopped commenting of my own choice because this wasn't, to me, actually being discussed for the point of understanding and clarification of views. There are aspects that Pink holds, that I hold as well and there are aspects that Pink favors, of which I believe scripture does not. Thus in order to talk about the atonement we must speak to the questions as they arise and not continue on till it has either been resolved or an agreement to disagree can be obtained (in this one obtains a better understanding of what the other holds and therefore you can see where the divergence begins specifically).

I believe there are some aspect of the atonement that are ignored in favor a theological perspective. And since both groups (General and limited) both agree that the sacrifice had to be done according to the Law in order for it to be acceptable unto God.. the issue, in my mind, must begin there.

Therefore the questions regarding the sacrifice of atonement -
"What it does"", "Why it is done", are very important as the Law explains them but we can not just off a major aspect of the Law regarding "Whom was it made on behalf of".

Anyway.. my point was actually not to start up 'again' but help you not 'seem like you are evading', by just continuing to move along. I'm not here to win arguments or debates.. I'm here to better understand other believers views so I can speak with more knowledge and understanding and if a person learns something (them OR me) then God be praised.

Since I work 3rd shift security I sometimes get opportunity to speak and they don't care as long as job aspects are finished and maintained in a timely and regulated manner.

Sorry to hear you were in the hospital.
Hope you are doing better.

 

[Iconoclast]

After many hours of concentrated study upon it, we give it as our matured conviction that this expression covers the whole of our reconciliation, from its conception in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, till our final glorification in heaven. This expression “God was in Christ [a name of office, not of nature] reconciling” expresses the agency of the Father in the entire work of reconciliation.

First , in choosing and appointing Christ for this work: Isaiah 42:1; Romans 3:25.

Second , in the covenant and agreement with Him: Isaiah 49:3-6; Psalm 89:3,4.

Third , in calling and sending Christ into this world: John 10:36; Hebrews 5:4,5.

Fourth , in fitting Christ for this stupendous undertaking: Hebrews 10: 5; Isaiah 11:1-3; John 3:34:

Fifth , in His dealings with Christ at the Cross: Isaiah 53:4,5.

Sixth , in accepting His expiatory sacrifice: Romans 4:24; 6:4.

Seventh , in glorifying Christ: Matthew 28:18; Psalm 2:8.

E. ITS SCOPE “God was in Christ, reconciling a world unto Himself” ( 2 Corinthians 5:19).

In 2 Peter 2:5 we read of “the world of the ungodly.” Here in Corinthians 5:19 it is the world of the godly or elect (as in John 6:33) — there is no “the” in the Greek. The expression is indefinite, though not universal.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Greek word for remission, “aphesis,” signifies “a sending away.” It is translated “deliverance” and “liberty” in Luke 4:18, and “forgiveness” in Acts 13:38; Ephesians 1:7, etc. Thus remission of sins means that God refuses to charge them to the account of him who truly believes in Christ. It is a deliverance from the curse of the law, which holds us fast under its death-sentence until Divine grace revokes it. It is the privative or negative side of justification, whereby the sinner who flees to Christ for refuge is delivered from every claim which Divine justice had upon him.

This is clear from Romans 4, where the apostle is expounding the truth of justification before God, and, after citing the case of Abraham, he appeals to the language of David in further proof: “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin” (vv. 7, 8).

There are other expressions used in the New Testament of equivalent import. Thus, “When he had by himself purged our sins” ( Hebrews 1:3). The word “purged” is here used in a sacrificial way, and refers to the removal of them from before the face of the Judge: cf. Psalm 51:7 and its context. Again, in Hebrews 10:10 we read, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all,” and cf. 13:12. Here, too, “sanctified” is used in a sacrificial sense. “The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” ( 1 John 1:7).

 

[Iconoclast]

When man fell from his sinless condition he was no more able to procure for himself a righteousness which would meet the inflexible demands of God’s justice and holiness, than he could eradicate the sinful nature which now vitiates all his faculties. His only hope lay in a substitution who was able both to keep the law for him and to suffer the penalty for his breach of it. Both of these were indispensable if sinners were to be saved from hell and given a valid title to heaven. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” ( Matthew 19:17).

Life is not to be obtained unless all is done that the law requires: it must be kept either by us or a surety. “There is the same need of Christ’s obeying the law in our stead, in order to the reward, as of His suffering the penalty of the law in our stead to our escaping the penalty; and the same reason why one should be accepted on our account, as the other. This is certain, that that was the reason why there was need that Christ should suffer the penalty for us, even that the law might be answered; for this the Scripture plainly teaches. This is given as the reason why Christ was made a curse for us, that the law’s threatening a curse to us: Galatians 3:10,13. But the same law that fixes the curse of God as the consequence of not continuing in all things written in the law to do them (v. 10), has as much fixed doing those things as an antecedent of living in them (v. 12). There is as much of a connection established in one place as in the other... We have not eternal life merely on the account of being void of guilt, but on the account of Christ’s activeness in obedience and doing well” (Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 4, p. 92). “I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth... For therein is the righteousness of God revealed” (Romans 1: 16, 17).

 

[preacher4truth]

This seems like a guessing game to me.


The original poster is holding all the cards, and other are to guess as to what he means.

It is the same thing in some churches, the teacher comes up with an obscure whatever, asks the body to answer questions, only the teacher has been privy to, then gives the answers in a haughty spirit.

Not biting.

 

[Iconoclast]

This seems like a guessing game to me.


The original poster is holding all the cards, and other are to guess as to what he means.

It is the same thing in some churches, the teacher comes up with an obscure whatever, asks the body to answer questions, only the teacher has been privy to, then gives the answers in a haughty spirit.

Not biting.

Actually,
I welcome any question or interaction whatsoever.I posted the link to the whole book online......in case you missed it....
http://www.godrules.net/library/pink/261pink2.htm
you say;

QUOTE=preacher4truth;1611033]This seems like a guessing game to me.


The original poster is holding all the cards, and other are to guess as to what he means.

You are suggesting something dark here friend?// If you read through the posts,you would have seen it.
Have I posted something you think is in error? Address it....man up...no drive by posting in some cryptic fashion. The quotes are directly from the book.....pick one out and discuss it,debate it , whatever.

 

[preacher4truth]

Man up?


Maybe you should rephrase that?


This entire thread reeked of touche.


My original response is where I stand, after reading your initial.

 

[Iconoclast]

This seems like a guessing game to me.


The original poster is holding all the cards, and other are to guess as to what he means.

It is the same thing in some churches, the teacher comes up with an obscure whatever, asks the body to answer questions, only the teacher has been privy to, then gives the answers in a haughty spirit.

Not biting.

Let's look at this again.
you say this;

This seems like a guessing game to me.

This is a discussion about the work of the cross,the atonement.....no guessing game here. Why is this confusing to you?

you say;

The original poster is holding all the cards

???? look at post 12....it is a complete link to the book.....so how am I holding all the cards??? it is a biblical discussion of the book!

then you say;

and other are to guess as to what he means.

You are making an accuasation with no basis.This shows a lack of christian love, and this is not exactly the measure of a christian man. Thats why i say
man up. In other words.....demonstrate what you are accusing me of. Show evidence of what you are speaking against.
No one forced you to comment.You took it upon yourself to make these charges.

Next you say;
[QUOTEIt is the same thing in some churches, the teacher comes up with an obscure whatever,][/QUOTE]

An obscure whatever???? The cross is an obscure whatever?
Even if you do not understand the topic,there are good verses offered in this book to comment on,that are good for the soul,but you evidently have set yourself up as a judge and accuser of the brethren....teachers in the church, brothers here on the BB....why do you assume the worst?

This entire thread reeked of touche.

To my view the only thing that reeks is your post.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let us present some further proofs of this. “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death” ( Romans 8:2).

In verse 1 we read that believers are exempt from all condemnation because of their legal union with Christ. In verse 2 we are shown the fruit of this: the Holy Spirit makes it good to the soul in a vital way. The “law” of the Spirit refers both to His authority and power. But what we would call special attention to is that, in the economy of redemption, the authority and power of the Spirit is “of life in Christ Jesus.” In other words, the Spirit communicates to God’s elect the very life which is in the Mediator. “The gift of God is eternal life through [or “in”] Jesus Christ our Lord” ( Romans 6:23).

In Christ “dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead” ( Colossians 2:9) therefore the Spirit both resides “in” and is dispensed “by” Him! “And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness” ( Romans 8:10).

Because of our union with Christ, the whole body of sin (cf. 6:6; 7:24) is legally “dead.” The “spirit” here refers to that which is born of the Spirit, and that is “life,” and it is a life “because of righteousness,” namely, the righteousness of Christ. The meritorious ground on which the Spirit imparts “life” to us is the Satisfaction of Christ. I live because Christ died and rose again for me. “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; That being justified by his grace we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” ( Titus 3:5-7).

 

[psalms109:31]

His Sheep

The more we find out who was His in the first place, chosen before the foundation of the world?

Why those who was His cut out or disowned for?

Why was the one's who wasn't disowned or cut out, kept?

Who are those included with the one's not cut out and why?

We would find out who are the elect, His sheep is. So many have a veil over there face called men idea to see what the scripture is saying.We could be stiffed neck people stuck in old ways.

God doesn't randomly chose some and pass over others, where are we glorifying God in that? There is a reason and purpose and it is found in scripture not in men ideas.

To disagree with God and His word and His will is messing with the sovereignty of God not trusting and believing in His word.

The atonement is for the elect I just don't agree with men interpretation of who they are.

 

[Iconoclast]

The more we find out who was His in the first place, chosen before the foundation of the world?

Why those who was His cut out or disowned for?

Why was the one's who wasn't disowned or cut out, kept?

Who are those included with the one's not cut out and why?

We would find out who are the elect, His sheep is. So many have a veil over there face called men idea to see what the scripture is saying.We could be stiffed neck people stuck in old ways.

God doesn't randomly chose some and pass over others, where are we glorifying God in that? There is a reason and purpose and it is found in scripture not in men ideas.

Hello Psa109
God has an eternal plan and purpose.This study looks right at the scripture and points the reader to many verses that search it out.

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

To disagree with God and His word and His will is messing with the sovereignty of God not trusting and believing in His word.

The atonement is for the elect I just don't agree with men interpretation of who they are.

...............................