The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ? 9

[taisto]

The TULIP doctrines are completely false from the first syllable to the last. They are not biblical any more than David Koresh's doctrine that allowed him to sleep with his member's fourteen year old daughters was biblical. You can make a so called biblical argument to make washing dishes a sin or murder a virtue if that's what you really want to do but that doesn't mean that you've made an argument that is actually rationally and biblically sound.

The simplest proof of this is that that TULIP doctrines directly imply, and are at least partially predicated on, the idea that God is arbitrary.

The God of scripture is the opposite of arbitrary. Therefore, the TULIP doctrines are false.

Now, that is definitely a very very simplified argument. A more rigorous argument that took each of the five doctrines one at a time and in some detail would be required to assert dogmatically that their falsehood has been fully established, but the point is that this simplified version communicates the gist of one of the most powerful arguments against the Calvinist system. In short, if God is just, Calvinism is false.

Another, equally powerful argument is the fact that all of Calvinism - the entire system - is based on a single premise. That premise being the immutability of God. If God can change, in any way whatsoever, Calvinism (and any other system based on Augustinian doctrine including, but not limited to, Arminianism and Catholicism) is falsified.

There several are other arguments as well that mostly try to tackle individual doctrines and that don't necessarily wipe out the whole Calvinist construct. These arguments are mostly used by those who want to try to pick and choose which doctrines they like and want to hang onto and which they wish to discard. The Arminians (Free Will Baptists, Church of the Nazarene, Church of Christ, et. al) fall very much into this category.

In short, if their doctrine is correct, which ever way anyone wants to come at it, God has predestined me to not only believe in free will but to be very well practiced and quite good at crushing Calvinists to powder by the power of sound reason and the plain reading of God's word. (Matthew 21:44)

Please lay out your exact soteriology for us, denying the total depravity of man, denying the unmerited election of the saints, denying the particular atonement of those who believe, denying the irresistible call of God, and denying the perseverance of the saints.

It is impossible to argue against a shadow who never comes out with his own doctrine, but hates all whom he disagrees with.

It is time for you to show your colors.

 

[CJP69]

Please lay out your exact soteriology for us...

No.

 

[taisto]

No.

You deny the tenants of Calvinism and Arminianism. Your voice in this area of the Baptist Board is void of any value and all who come should openly ignore you as a troll who provides no value at all in conversation.
Also, your unwillingness to express your true doctrine shows us all that you are not to be trusted. In fact, the very way you treat the brothers and sisters here is indicative of something much less.

 

[CJP69]

You deny the tenants of Calvinism and Arminianism. Your voice in this area of the Baptist Board is void of any value and all who come should openly ignore you as a troll who provides no value at all in conversation.

Why? Because I'm not dumb enough to allow you to set the terms of a debate?

Also, your unwillingness to express your true doctrine shows us all that you are not to be trusted.

You are the one not being honest and everyone here with a functioning mind knows it.

Besides, its not as if I haven't told you what my doctrine is. You don't care what my soteriology is. If you did, what I've already told you is plenty enough for you to know what it is anyway or at the very least you could look it up for yourself.

[Snip] You not only believe but state publicly that God is unjust! What more evidence does one need?

There is simply no such thing as an arbitrary god. All such gods are fantasizes. If you think believing in one is going to go well for you on judgment day then the only way I can help you is to implore you to repent while you still have the choice to do so. Drop this false pagan god of Socrates and cling to the only true God that actually does love you and desires a real relationship with you but will not (cannot) force such a relationship on you. It is your choice! While there is life, there is hope!

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish;...

19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;​

 

[taisto]

Why? Because I'm not dumb enough to allow you to set the terms of a debate?


You are the one not being honest and everyone here with a functioning mind knows it.

Besides, its not as if I haven't told you what my doctrine is. You don't care what my soteriology is. If you did, what I've already told you is plenty enough for you to know what it is anyway or at the very least you could look it up for yourself.


I have no evidence that you or any other Calvinist that I have so far encountered on this website is a brother or sister. There is good evidence that you are not. You not only believe but state publicly that God is unjust! What more evidence does one need?

There is simply no such thing as an arbitrary god. All such gods are fantasizes. If you think believing in one is going to go well for you on judgment day then the only way I can help you is to implore you to repent while you still have the choice to do so. Drop this false pagan god of Socrates and cling to the only true God that actually does love you and desires a real relationship with you but will not (cannot) force such a relationship on you. It is your choice! While there is life, there is hope!

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish;...

19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;​

With every post you provide, you prove my point about you. Your unwillingness to express your true doctrine shows us all that you are not to be trusted. In fact, the very way you treat the brothers and sisters here is indicative of something much less.

 

[AustinC]

I have no evidence that you or any other Calvinist that I have so far encountered on this website is a brother or sister.

Openly breaking the rules of the BB and calling others unsaved because they don't hold to your Boydian sect. You're something else.

There is good evidence that you are not.

Wow, I hope you know such a statement has gotten many persons permanently banned from the BB. The only question is whether the last two moderators will care.

You not only believe but state publicly that God is unjust! What more evidence does one need?

So, you are now openly lying as well. Please quote where taisto publicly said that God is unjust.

You won't find it, but that won't stop you from false accusations against the brothers and sisters.

It seems that you are openly calling God unjust if God is the one who chooses to pardon a person according to His will.

Have you ripped Romans 9 right out of your Bible?

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
~ *Romans 9:14-26*

 

[The Archangel]

... God has predestined me to not only believe in free will but to be very well practiced and quite good at crushing Calvinists to powder by the power of sound reason and the plain reading of God's word. (Matthew 21:44)

A bit full of yourself, aren't you? From what I've read of your work nothing of what you claim here is true, and your statements of your own abilities are laughably false.

The Archangel

 

[Scarlett O.]

MOD NOTE: 15 pages reached. Thread closed.

 

[The Archangel]

Is this a real question?

The testimony of the created order is sufficient to cause someone to be without excuse but that doesn't make it anywhere near as effective a means of getting people saved as does the preaching of God's word. If it were, God wouldn't have inspired it's writting nor revealed the gospel of grace to the Apostle Paul.

This is so close and yet so far. On the positive side, you state "the created order is sufficient to cause someone to be without excuse." OK. But, you use the word "effective" as if there is a chance people can find salvation in the created order--without the special revelation of scripture. On that you are mistaken. It isn't a question of what is more effective--the "testimony of the created order" or the "preaching of the God's word." Rather it is a statement of possible and impossible. It is impossible for general revelation to save; salvation, however, is found in the preaching of God's word (special revelation).

Who said any thing about it being a free pass? It still took the shedding of Christ's blood to rectify the issue of the sinful nature that was passed to them from Adam, so that was far from what I would call free and, more directly, their salvation would not be based on grace alone through faith alone as we who are in the Body of Christ enjoy, but rather it would be based on their actions. That means it isn't going to turn out well for the vast majority of those who are never exposed to the gospel and thereby offered an actual "free pass", to use your term, into heaven.

"Free pass" is the logical conclusion of your argument that Creation preaches the gospel, and "free" as I'm sure you realize, in my statement referred to not the one paying the bill, but the one receiving the benefit.

Additionally, it isn't going to turn out well for anyone who does not repent and believe in the gospel.

The Archangel