Calv1
Active Member
What happened on the Cross? Did Jesus die for everyone as some say? Did Jesus make Salvation "Possible", but not DEFINITE for anyone?
Scripture is clear and the answer simple. Jesus does not fail, Jesus died for the elect, and the elect only, it's called "Definite Atonement".
In the OT the High Priest, once a year would go into the Holy of Holies and offer blood, he'd probably see old dried up blood from the previous year, he'd offer it, and then leave. Jesus was both the One making the Offer, and He Himself WAS the offer, but for who?
Peter tells us in 1 Peter 2:24 "He Himself bore OUR SINS in His body on the cross", pretty simple right? God put our sins on Christ, and punished Christ for our sins in what is referred to as the "Great Exchange". Now the question should immediately come to your mind, "If He died for everyone, for Hitler, and lives to intercede for him", then how could Hitler go to Hell? You'll say "Well Hitler didn't accept Christ, but that's NOT WHAT IT SAYS, it says "He bore OUR SINS in His body", so let's stay with Hitler, if Christ bore Hitlers sins in His body, paid for them in full, then it's IMPOSSIBLE for Hitler to be judged, for God is just, He'll never judge the same sin twice, once in His own son, second on Judgement Day. On Judgement Day Hitler could say "Jesus died, took the punishment for all of my sins, since they are already paid for you can't put me in Hell". Really we can quit here, but there is much more.
Jesus is a permanent Priest, and always intercedes for those He has died for. This further complicates the problem, if Jesus intercedes for those whom He died for, can His intercession fail? Remember what this intercession is, it's not us sinning, then Christ saying "Forgive them I died for them", wrong, it's just HIS PRESENCE that is the intercession, His will and Fathers are identical.
Hebrews 10:14: For by ONE SACRIFICE He HAS (Not possibly, but HAS) PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are being made holy. At this point it's checkmate. His sacrifice worked, He had a specific people in mind, not because of what they've done as the Arminian says, but out of the counsel of His own will.
To understand the Atonement you have to understand the OT Atonement, where they High Priest would offer blood once a year, it had to be repeated, and "The blood of bulls and goats did not remove sin", but was a shadow of that good thing to come. Jesus, willingly, took YOUR SINS, every one of them if you are a believer, and God punished your sins on the cross, this is the ENTIRE POINT OF MESSIAH, he had to be GOD (Worthy enough a sacrifice to pay for sin, no man was good enough), and MAN, the offending party, just as through one man sin came to all, so with one man forgiveness is offered to those that believe.
Now if you take the view that it's up to man, you make God Almighty a beggar, ignore scripture, and put Him in Heaven with a PLAN ONLY, no guarantee this plan would work, hey no guarantee they'd even crucify Him. What if in their free will they made Him King? Oops. Or what if in their free will nobody believed? To think fallen man, dead in sin, unable to please God could come to Christ is simply not found in the bible.
I know where the objections come from though, Paul addresses them in Romans 9. You say "That's not fair, why pick some and not others", but what you don't realize when you say that is you're assuming that ALL DESERVE A CHANCE. Ask yourself, does God HAVE to offer a chance to ANYONE? Didn't He wipe out the entire world once? No one accuses Him of unfairness there, for He was acting JUSTLY, it's JUSTICE if He sends all men to Hell. The REAL GLORY OF THE GOSPEL, that is sadly missed, is that HE SAVES ANYONE, look at us, vile sinners, daily offensive to God, yet He sends His OWN SON to die for some.
It's also necessary. Man thinks he's the highest end in the Universe, wrong. The highest end in the Universe if God's Glory. This is why God seeks His own glory in all things, our salvation is for His glory Eph 1. God would be unjust to hide any of His attributes, so He shows both His great mercy AND His perfect justice, and you need to understand, those that are not ELECT, and yes the word ELECT is all through the bible, even 'Elect Angels" DON'T CARE IF THEY ARE SAVED OR NOT, go ask a Athiest how much he cares if he's elect or not, he'll tell you he's glad. The misunderstanding comes when some think "Some want Heaven, but are not elect, so won't make it", that is a false statement, for all who truly want God and his glory will end up in Heaven, the desire is not of you, but a gift of God "I will take out their hearts of stone and put in a heart of flesh", where do you see mans actions there?
That's what gets me, used to trick me when I first started studying the subject, the Bible shows man's actions, so we assume it must be man that makes things happen, it's only after you study do you see that yes man chooses, but only because of a underlying reason, God's election John 6 et al.
I've turned many Arminians with this argument, because one of their objections is that it doesn't seem fair. So look at it from the Arminian view, we must have scripture to believe, yet most of the planet doesn't have a bible anywhere, many have never heard of Christ. So the question is 'Does God have the power to provide bibles to everyone"??? Of course He does. Does He? NO, so by default, that is either way you look at it He chooses some, and not others. He could make bibles appear all across China, Iran, and other countries, but HE WON'T THOUGH HE CAN, and those people will end up in Hell, so what is your "fairness" argument. Paul is so strong in Romans 9, anticipating your argument "You will say to me this is not fair", "But who are you, oh man to argue back to God, does not the potter have the right to make some pots for good and others for common use". By using the "Fairness Argument" you are fighting Paul himself, he would rebuke you.
If you understand the most basic tenet of Christianity, that NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE, THEY'VE ALL GONE ASTRAY....." Do you believe those words? If so you've gone astray, you need a active savior that can save you to the uttermost, we are ALL HELL DESERVING SINNERS, I agree it doesn't seem to make sense, "Is it fair I'm born into sin", but if I use my own arguments as a fallen sinner, I'm a fool, better to take Gods CLEAR WORDS ON IT. Did Abraham come to God or did God call him? What about Isaac, Jacob? Did Moses seek God, or did God seek Moses?. Did we love Jesus, or did He love us? He tells us "You did not love me, I loved you", the REASON we love, the reason we believe, is that He acted first.
The reason this is so important to me is the Glory of God, I say Arminians rob God of Glory. They make a bunch of money they praise themselves instead of God, even though He says "Who is is that make the rich, who is it that creates the poor, is it not I says the Lord". Likewise if bad things happens you miss out on the richest trial of faith, Job knew God was sovereign, when his children were killed, his riches gone, covered with sores and nightmares he said "Shall we receive good from the Lord and NOT EVIL", then right after the bible says "In all this Job did not sin with his lips". If evil comes into your life, know that it's God who brought it "Shall calamity come to a city unless the Lord has brought it" the Prophet Amos.
If you're a Spirit filled believer, it was Jesus, not you "Who BY ONE SACRIFICE MADE YOU PERFECT FOREVER........
Scripture is clear and the answer simple. Jesus does not fail, Jesus died for the elect, and the elect only, it's called "Definite Atonement".
In the OT the High Priest, once a year would go into the Holy of Holies and offer blood, he'd probably see old dried up blood from the previous year, he'd offer it, and then leave. Jesus was both the One making the Offer, and He Himself WAS the offer, but for who?
Peter tells us in 1 Peter 2:24 "He Himself bore OUR SINS in His body on the cross", pretty simple right? God put our sins on Christ, and punished Christ for our sins in what is referred to as the "Great Exchange". Now the question should immediately come to your mind, "If He died for everyone, for Hitler, and lives to intercede for him", then how could Hitler go to Hell? You'll say "Well Hitler didn't accept Christ, but that's NOT WHAT IT SAYS, it says "He bore OUR SINS in His body", so let's stay with Hitler, if Christ bore Hitlers sins in His body, paid for them in full, then it's IMPOSSIBLE for Hitler to be judged, for God is just, He'll never judge the same sin twice, once in His own son, second on Judgement Day. On Judgement Day Hitler could say "Jesus died, took the punishment for all of my sins, since they are already paid for you can't put me in Hell". Really we can quit here, but there is much more.
Jesus is a permanent Priest, and always intercedes for those He has died for. This further complicates the problem, if Jesus intercedes for those whom He died for, can His intercession fail? Remember what this intercession is, it's not us sinning, then Christ saying "Forgive them I died for them", wrong, it's just HIS PRESENCE that is the intercession, His will and Fathers are identical.
Hebrews 10:14: For by ONE SACRIFICE He HAS (Not possibly, but HAS) PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are being made holy. At this point it's checkmate. His sacrifice worked, He had a specific people in mind, not because of what they've done as the Arminian says, but out of the counsel of His own will.
To understand the Atonement you have to understand the OT Atonement, where they High Priest would offer blood once a year, it had to be repeated, and "The blood of bulls and goats did not remove sin", but was a shadow of that good thing to come. Jesus, willingly, took YOUR SINS, every one of them if you are a believer, and God punished your sins on the cross, this is the ENTIRE POINT OF MESSIAH, he had to be GOD (Worthy enough a sacrifice to pay for sin, no man was good enough), and MAN, the offending party, just as through one man sin came to all, so with one man forgiveness is offered to those that believe.
Now if you take the view that it's up to man, you make God Almighty a beggar, ignore scripture, and put Him in Heaven with a PLAN ONLY, no guarantee this plan would work, hey no guarantee they'd even crucify Him. What if in their free will they made Him King? Oops. Or what if in their free will nobody believed? To think fallen man, dead in sin, unable to please God could come to Christ is simply not found in the bible.
I know where the objections come from though, Paul addresses them in Romans 9. You say "That's not fair, why pick some and not others", but what you don't realize when you say that is you're assuming that ALL DESERVE A CHANCE. Ask yourself, does God HAVE to offer a chance to ANYONE? Didn't He wipe out the entire world once? No one accuses Him of unfairness there, for He was acting JUSTLY, it's JUSTICE if He sends all men to Hell. The REAL GLORY OF THE GOSPEL, that is sadly missed, is that HE SAVES ANYONE, look at us, vile sinners, daily offensive to God, yet He sends His OWN SON to die for some.
It's also necessary. Man thinks he's the highest end in the Universe, wrong. The highest end in the Universe if God's Glory. This is why God seeks His own glory in all things, our salvation is for His glory Eph 1. God would be unjust to hide any of His attributes, so He shows both His great mercy AND His perfect justice, and you need to understand, those that are not ELECT, and yes the word ELECT is all through the bible, even 'Elect Angels" DON'T CARE IF THEY ARE SAVED OR NOT, go ask a Athiest how much he cares if he's elect or not, he'll tell you he's glad. The misunderstanding comes when some think "Some want Heaven, but are not elect, so won't make it", that is a false statement, for all who truly want God and his glory will end up in Heaven, the desire is not of you, but a gift of God "I will take out their hearts of stone and put in a heart of flesh", where do you see mans actions there?
That's what gets me, used to trick me when I first started studying the subject, the Bible shows man's actions, so we assume it must be man that makes things happen, it's only after you study do you see that yes man chooses, but only because of a underlying reason, God's election John 6 et al.
I've turned many Arminians with this argument, because one of their objections is that it doesn't seem fair. So look at it from the Arminian view, we must have scripture to believe, yet most of the planet doesn't have a bible anywhere, many have never heard of Christ. So the question is 'Does God have the power to provide bibles to everyone"??? Of course He does. Does He? NO, so by default, that is either way you look at it He chooses some, and not others. He could make bibles appear all across China, Iran, and other countries, but HE WON'T THOUGH HE CAN, and those people will end up in Hell, so what is your "fairness" argument. Paul is so strong in Romans 9, anticipating your argument "You will say to me this is not fair", "But who are you, oh man to argue back to God, does not the potter have the right to make some pots for good and others for common use". By using the "Fairness Argument" you are fighting Paul himself, he would rebuke you.
If you understand the most basic tenet of Christianity, that NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE, THEY'VE ALL GONE ASTRAY....." Do you believe those words? If so you've gone astray, you need a active savior that can save you to the uttermost, we are ALL HELL DESERVING SINNERS, I agree it doesn't seem to make sense, "Is it fair I'm born into sin", but if I use my own arguments as a fallen sinner, I'm a fool, better to take Gods CLEAR WORDS ON IT. Did Abraham come to God or did God call him? What about Isaac, Jacob? Did Moses seek God, or did God seek Moses?. Did we love Jesus, or did He love us? He tells us "You did not love me, I loved you", the REASON we love, the reason we believe, is that He acted first.
The reason this is so important to me is the Glory of God, I say Arminians rob God of Glory. They make a bunch of money they praise themselves instead of God, even though He says "Who is is that make the rich, who is it that creates the poor, is it not I says the Lord". Likewise if bad things happens you miss out on the richest trial of faith, Job knew God was sovereign, when his children were killed, his riches gone, covered with sores and nightmares he said "Shall we receive good from the Lord and NOT EVIL", then right after the bible says "In all this Job did not sin with his lips". If evil comes into your life, know that it's God who brought it "Shall calamity come to a city unless the Lord has brought it" the Prophet Amos.
If you're a Spirit filled believer, it was Jesus, not you "Who BY ONE SACRIFICE MADE YOU PERFECT FOREVER........
