The Atonement.

I wouldn't be surprised if wes denies the existenece of a literal hell considering the things that he says. After all he dosen't believe in absolute truth only relative truth.

 

Heb 11:1-8 for "without faith it is impossible to please God".

Eph 2:8-9 "By GRACE are you saved THROUGH FAITH".

Wes you make a very good point above.

The DIFFERENCE between those raised in the FIRST resurrection (immune from the lake of fire - second death) and those raised in the second resurrection of Rev 20 (and who are subjected to the lake-of-fire second death) is that the first are the faithful - the born-again saints with the New Covenant fullfilled IN them.

Again - I think you are correct to point out that this is not just "forgetting" about sin and penalty - it is real substitionary atonement.

The "substitutionary" aspect means it was paid FOR YOU.

The "Atonement" aspect points to the fact that what the Law demands is validated and verified in a just manner with the rules set by God Himself.

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However as Christ points out in Matt 7 "NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven".

So "Atonement" also involves a validation process where the fakes are separated from the genuine and in the end "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR OF the saints" Daniel 7 -- just before the 2nd coming as Daniel points out.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I explained that, can't you read?

This BBS is a classical example of the fact that truth is relative!

 

Excuse me Wes. Yes Wes says that Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and that's the end of it. Annihilation.

No scripture has been provided for this but somewhere it says that Heaven and Hell will pass away.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]In Matt 10 - God claims to "DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

That is ALSO where HE claims that mankind KILLS only the body. So one must conclude that AS the body is killed and is destroyed SO ALSO the soul.

In Ezek 18 we find that the soul that sins will eventually die.

In Malachi 4 we find that the wicked will be no more.

So as real as the fire and torment are of Rev 14:10 -- the saints WILL be there for the ENTIRE THING (as even Edwards admits).

Problem solved.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wes is not the one who says that, He only agrees with the one who does. Here it is for you. Please read it carefully so you don't miss any of it.

Well that does away with death and Hades, now what about the burning lake, the second death.

So what about the lake of Fire? There is no mention of any lake of fire in the new creation that God says already exists!

By the way, you also need to read Rev 20:1-11 where Satan and the false prophet, and the demons, etc., etc., are tossed into the lake of fire. Quite a fire-works show in the end.

With all the bad guys gone, and all their influences in ashes, there is no longer a need for a place to put bad guys and evil influences! There is no longer a need for death because all who are left have everlasting life, no dying there, and there is no need for a place to "hold" the sinners for judgement, because there will never be another judgement! There will exist no more sin because God has purified all! So one must conclude that the with the passing of the old heaven and earth, the lake of fire went with them. But, but, but what about eternal torment? Consider that if you've been cast into the lake of fire, and the lake of fire is done away with that you to are done away with, and that is forever...eternally.

 

Stop crucifying the Christ over and over and over!

The Atonement is a done deal! All sin has been dealt with, and it is now a matter of believe it or not!

 

Wes,

You seem very confused. My post was not for the purpose of stating my beliefs. I asked you questions in order to get clarification of just what it is you believe. The question mark that followed the words should have given you some indication there were questions being asked, rather than statements being made.

The words you read and use seem to change meaning, your understanding not being consistent but instead relativistic. [ b] The definitions for various words you use are certainly suspect.

Following are my questions you thought were statements, from the previous post:

Do you deny the believer receives the righteousness of Christ, i.e., imputed righteousness?

Do you contend that Christ provides pardon without eternal life, and that the pardoned sinner merits eternal life through sanctification of the Holy Ghost, i.e., faith working by love?

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Without the torment.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]God did away with that too! Just like he did away with animal sacrifice because it did not please him, He has done away with permanent torment because that too does not please Him. Look at what the Revelation 20 and 21 scriptures say about it!

 

Nope.

Hell is real, the fire is real, the people are real, the pain is real the words of Christ saying that God will "DESTROY BOTH Body and Soul in fiery hell" -- are REAL!

All "real".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I answered your questions Bob.

Why would you ask such questions if you yourself did not believe what you are asking?

 

Not all sin but Eli's household had no sacrifice made for them.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly right, there is no sacrifice made for ELI's HOUSHOLD just like you say! However, there was a ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice made for SIN!

Did you catch the difference?

 

Wrong.

That is not what God's Word said in Lev 16. There we can all "see" that the chapter does NOT end in vs 8!!

The Day of Atonement service shows GOD's view of how far PAST the "atoning sacrifice" the process extends and it SHOWS it to INCLUDE the unique role of the High Priest once a year!!

This work of Christ we see STARTING in Heb 7-10 AFTER the cross!!

You keep ignoring these scriptures (as you do the rest of scripture that does not please you) since they do not fit with the stories you have become accustomed to telling.

I see clearly your "need" to ignore this obvious fact of scripture. I just don't see why you pretend that you have a case.

In Christ,

Bob