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The Atonement.

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by johnp., May 31, 2005.

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  1. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Wes.
    Mk 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

    LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

    LK 16:30 " `No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

    LK 16:31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

    john.
     
    #201 johnp., Jun 27, 2005
  2. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Wes.
    There is no difference. No sacrifice was made for the kin of Eli. If all sin has been atoned for then that would be Eli's household's sin included.

    Since you say you believe no sacrifice was made for Eli's house then there must be a limited atonement. Yes or no.

    john.
     
    #202 johnp., Jun 27, 2005
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Allegory! Johnp, Allegory that Jesus used to illustrate a point! He was not declaring anything more than being lost for eternity.

    What do you not understand about the phrase "the second death". Is it merely a portal to yet another life? Or, is it final ending of existance? The first death takes your physical body, the second death takes your soul!
     
    #203 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hell is Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

    Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”
    Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”. So eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

    The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”

    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
    #204 BobRyan, Jun 27, 2005
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Death is ended.
    "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


    The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.


    The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.
    Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
    Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
    2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

    Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
    #205 BobRyan, Jun 27, 2005
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The wicked will “be no more”

    Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more”  Ashes (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)

    Mal 4:1,3 The wicked will be set ablaze – turned to ashes, nothing left

    Ps 59:13 The wicked are “destroyed” they will “be no more”

    “Destroy them in wrath – Destroy them that they may be No More”

    Ps 104:35 sinners will be consumed – they will “be no more”
    Ps 1:6 – not only the wicked – but “wickedness perishes”
    Ps 10:15 God seeks out wickedness “until He finds none”

    Prov 24:19-20 The wicked have a bad future – and THEN they have “no future”
    [/quote]


    The wicked are “consumed”

    Ezek 28:18
    Ps 104:35
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
    #206 BobRyan, Jun 27, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    There is no difference. No sacrifice was made for the kin of Eli. If all sin has been atoned for then that would be Eli's household's sin included.

    Since you say you believe no sacrifice was made for Eli's house then there must be a limited atonement. Yes or no.

    john.     </font>[/QUOTE]But you have never stated that there is no atonement or sacrifice for the sins of Eli's house until this post! Now you change your story! What does 1 Samual say?
    Now I must ask, Was the sin of Eli's family that they cursed God once? Or was it a continual unrepentant, unrelenting cursing of God?

    The sin of Cursing God is included in the Christ's Atonement! However, there is no atonement for those who refuse to repent. How can anyone who continually curses God expect "salvation" by God? Test your theory out on your wife! And report back to us in a year. We'd be interested in the results of you relentlessly cursing your wife.
     
    #207 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  8. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Wes,

    You really are having a hard time of it. Try to grasp the fact, they were questions to you, and not statements from me. There really would be little difference if you assigned those as my beliefs since you already assign your confused notion of what Calvinism is. Deal with the Scriptures and consider that if people are not using the same definitions for words, they are speaking different and contradictory languages.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #208 Bob Krajcik, Jun 27, 2005
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Wes,

    You really are having a hard time of it. Try to grasp the fact, they were questions to you, and not statements from me. There really would be little difference if you assigned those as my beliefs since you already assign your confused notion of what Calvinism is. Deal with the Scriptures and consider that if people are not using the same definitions for words, they are speaking different and contradictory languages.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio     </font>[/QUOTE]Why are you persuing this thought on more than one topic?
     
    #209 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  10. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Touch a nerve did I?

    I'm steering the same course I have throughout.

    Since you say you believe no sacrifice was made for Eli's house then there must be a limited atonement. Yes or no.

    john.
     
    #210 johnp., Jun 28, 2005
  11. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Wes.
    Strange that He should use real names for fictitious people but allegory speaks of a truth and the truth being expressed is one of conscious torment from a tyrant God. That covers whatever you claim as allegory.
    I don't know what I don't know but death is never used to describe annihilation is it? That properly belongs to Jehovah's witnesses doesn't it?
    The second death is the final judgement where the ressurrected sinners are cast into Hell as men and not disembodied spirit beings.

    Your sweet Jesus forces you to abandon scripture and deny the truth of Hell. Seperation from God and all of God's goodness forever without relief.
    LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    What you want to do is to show that this passage does not mean what it says.

    You ask Bob Krajcik: Why are you persuing this thought on more than one topic? I would venture to say it is because you have not answered.

    john.
     
    #211 johnp., Jun 28, 2005
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Jesus is telling the rich man in hell, that no one can go back from the dead and convince the rich man's relatives to believe! He said they have Moses, the law, etc. but refuse to hear them, so sending a person back from the dead would not convince them either. The fact the rich man is in hell is of little consequence to the principle being revealed, he has received his just reward.

    The second death of being cast into the lake of fire, by all indications, is FINAL, there is no return from it, and no one survives it and, though not specifically stated, the lake of fire being part of this creation, passes away and is not part of the "I make ALL things new" creation of Revelation 21...because there is no need for punishment in the new creation.

    Luke 16:25 perfectly illustrates what I said in my opening paragraph of this post.

    Yes, I did answer Bob on another thread where he posted the same thing.
     
    #212 Wes Outwest, Jun 28, 2005
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I'm steering the same course I have throughout.

    Since you say you believe no sacrifice was made for Eli's house then there must be a limited atonement. Yes or no.    </font>[/QUOTE]NO! When will you understand that "we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers". Sin is a power, and it condemned all mankind through one man Adam. Sin's power was defeated through the Atonement of ONE man, Jesus.

    Eli's House is a non-significant event, in that Atonement is not for people, but for a power.

    What is significant about Eli's house is that because of their constant sinning in the form of cursing God, they made themselves UNREDEEMABLE! Therefore no sacrifice could be made for them, there was no remorse, no remission, and no repentance in Eli's house, thus no forgiveness for them.

    There is no such thing as limited Atonement! All sin in ALL times was Atoned. It is up to us to believe, repent, confess and receive forgiveness, and to receive God's free gift of Salvation to ALL who do!
     
    #213 Wes Outwest, Jun 28, 2005
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Luke 16 Christ makes the point that those who REJECT the writings of Moses will not listen to someone risen from the dead (like Christ for example).

    He uses a parable to make the point. A parable in which Abraham is IN CHARGE of the dead saints. A parable in which petitions are made TO ABRAHAM from the realm of the lost -- NOT to God.

    A parable in which Abraham answers with authority -- and does not indicate that the righteous are in the hands of God and only God can make the decision.


    A parable in which the righteous dead are all sitting in Abraham's lap!

    This parable was PERFECT for a bunch of doubting Jewish leaders who highly valued Abraham. But taking its "details" as literal rather than taking the POINT of the illustration as TRUE -- is a fallacy of eisgesis practiced today because of the need to make a point entirely OUTSIDE of the point of the Parable!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #214 BobRyan, Jun 28, 2005
  15. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Bob.

    Are you thinking that people that die are not conscious but are asleep until judgement day?
    Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more”  Ashes (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)
    How could Satan be reduced to ashes? So what people or towns can?
    Jude 7 says, "...They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
    You force scripture into saying something but it does not say what you hope. Why I wonder does God treat people so while they are only acting out of free will? Anyone would think from these three verses that free will can be stifled?

    None of the verses used help you. You must harmonise your verses with:
    "LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    What you want to do is to show that this passage does not mean what it says.

    Now the problem I see is that if you believe that none are suffering the torments of Hell now, at this moment, then the passage below blows you out of the water.
    2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
    If you believe that the spirits of the unrighteous continues then those that died 6000 years ago have suffered 6000 of the torments of Hell. :hot:

    What's it to be Bob?

    john.
     
    #215 johnp., Jun 28, 2005
  16. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Bob.
    Christ is an example of someone rising from the dead? :cool:
    The gospel was known to them, it was told them, Jesus taught the disciples that the OT was the gospel. The reason the brothers would not believe was because they did not believe. Jesus coming back from the dead is not more convincing than believing He will be! :cool: JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
    No it is a factual account of an actual event. The words do not need spelling out, they say what they mean.
    After you have denied it's factuality you will proceed to deny it's message. Hell is real and forever conscious and tormented. Not tormented by demons with three pronged forks, because they will be busy in their own deaths, but by God.
    Abraham is IN CHARGE of the dead saints? Where is that written but He is our father is he not? I see that the conversation between the dead is not prohibited as the living talking to the dead is. That's right isn't it Bob, it is prohibited for the living to try such a thing?
    Abraham would have taken the poor bloke down the pub I bet but he could not bridge the gap to aid. Can't see too many tears around though! :cool:
    Now comes the classy bit. The man in Hell asks Abraham for someone to go back and warn his kin. He does not ask God because he is at emnity with God and they hate each other. Well you can't say God loves the man in Hell. The man in Hell is actually complaining that he did not get enough help to avoid his dwelling place! :cool: He blames God for his condition in not providing sufficient evidence. That's emnity that is. Abraham just says that he had enough evidence as his kin have enough. No further proof is required by us.
    Answers with authority in that he says he can't get a coke to the thirsty man because he can't bridge the gap and that the man and his complaint is not heard. Some authority maybe.
    God is Sovereign.
    It's a parable 7 times? Trying a bit of brainwashing are you?
    Yea sure man and saying it's a.......what's the word? Oh yea 'parable', you are saying it's a parable for you to have your way with it and make it mean 'not' what it says but what you want it to say. :cool: Parable my foot. A warning.

    john.
     
    #216 johnp., Jun 28, 2005
  17. OCC

    OCC Guest

    John, you don't have a leg to stand on. Nobody, including your Calvinist friends, is helping you out with your "God hated Jesus" 'theology'. I am not even going to address everything you said because it would be pointless and we would never get anywhere.

    Just so ya know, Sola Scriptura is believing in the Bible as the final authority for faith and practise (which I do). We are on here debating ideas...one does not debate with Scripture. One who knows how to debate, knows that.

    Thou hast heard King James' version...and to continue in this merry go round of jolly fun would be futile and I believe God has "predestined" us for better things.

    Just so you don't think I've "chickened out", no, God did not hate Jesus...at any time. He did not hate Himself either. :cool:
     
    #217 OCC, Jun 28, 2005
  18. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello KJ.
    Does that mean I'm a low down bum? :cool:
    I like this sniping that goes on. It gives me something to do in between the serious bits. :cool:
    I would complain about you leaving me in the dark but it seems lighter when you ignore me. :cool:
    There is nothing outside scripture to talk about is there? Anyway I think there is a forum for chit chat this forum is Arminian vs Calvinism not free thinkers us. Not that I mind I said I like low level sniping. It keeps yer on yer toes.
    You saying goodbye again? :cool:
    What's 'cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree' mean please. :cool:

    john.
     
    #218 johnp., Jun 28, 2005
  19. OCC

    OCC Guest

    Cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree means cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree. [​IMG]

    Now...YOU have to square that with Scripture cuz it sure don't mean God hated Jesus.

    Low level sniping eh? Well...I've only engaged you in it because you have wanted to. I liked the competetiveness but if you are going to flat out insult me, then you prove what I've believed all along about many Calvinists.

    I am aware this is a Calvinism/Arminianism forum. But you debate with your mind, not Scripture. Any debater knows that. What does bouncing out of context verses back and forth accomplish? Nothing...that's what.

    You said: "You saying goodbye again?" You only wish. I was just attempting to illustrate to you that the debate is getting futile...however you are free to debate with me on other issues. The King will not have you tarred and feathered.

    "I would complain about you leaving me in the dark but it seems lighter when you ignore me." Well...you are behaving like a true Calvinist.

    A question for you chap...who would want to know "your" god? A mentally unstable 'despot' who hates most of the people that HE created?

    [ June 28, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: King James ]
     
    #219 OCC, Jun 28, 2005
  20. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello KJ.

    Cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree means cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree. (KJ)
    What does it mean to be cursed by God please? :cool:
    Thank you that very nice of you. :cool:
    It's quite unnecessary to be flat out to insult another. Where have I insulted you? I've told you already that I hold your nation in esteem. :cool:
    Oh good! I'm a Calvinist again! :cool:
    With scriptural backup but not without scripture.
    ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. That's why. He accomplishes His work in His way with His word.
    You are not a king.
    It's in us. Birds of a feather.
    Not many...actually none! :cool: That what He says.
    Have you spoken to my Shrink yet?

    john.
     
    #220 johnp., Jun 28, 2005
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