The Atonement.

Yes or no will do.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]I would much rather give you another opportunity to turn a blind eye to the Word of God.

In God's Word we find this statement about THE DEAD in Christ --

Are these the scriptures "you" need to "ignore"??

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Already answered.

God SO LOVED THE WORLD that HE GAVE!!!

Gal 3 says that WE - the WORLD - were under a CURSE. God SO LOVED US -- under the CURSE - that HE GAVE His only Son to REDEEM those HE LOVED - under the CURSE of sin and death!

It can not be any more obvious -- yet you play your rabbit trail game "As if" unnable to read.

Pretty facinating actually. (But then - you "are" Calvinist!)

In Christ,

Bob

 

JohnP --

This game of yours has been fun and all - but seriously - do you have even ONE serious point to make??

Why not pursue truth instead of playing these rabbit-trail games of yours with such obvious and easy solutions?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Sin's power is the law and the law stands forever.
Your understanding of the sacrifice of atonement is your own I take it? The sacrifice of atonement atoned for Israel and is effective. It does not depend on the attitude of the recipient but on who the sacrifice is made for.</font>[/QUOTE]Under the OLD COVENANT that may be true, But the NEW COVENENT OF FAITH UNDER GRACE, the ONCE for ALL Atonement of the CHRIST removed the power that sin had, which was death to those who do sin! No that does not mean that man can sin with impunity. It means that man can have everlasting life because death no longer awaits him IF he has faith in God! Yes all men face judgment for their deeds, and sins are nothing more than deeds, but those deeds will not prevent him from having everlasting life through faith in God.

In the case of Eli's household it was not that the sons made themselves unredeemable, no one can do that, it was because God decided for His own reason that they should die. "...His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.</font>[/QUOTE]Those who lack faith in God make themselves unredeemable! Eli's house not only lacked faith in God, but cursed God continuously. They were the paltry, puny, enemies of God!

If you are going to criticize me for my understanding of words, at least you could phrase it better!

Gosh, I actually do believe this and am convinced that You are one of them!

If you are speaking of in-animate objects such as a ring I am compelled to agree with you. But God made all mankind "animate objects", made us in his image he did. Gave us many of the "ilities" he himself possesses, and he actually expects us to use them.

Yea in your dreams. It was to Eli's house. It was because Eli was told, "`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'1 Sam 3:14. It was nothing to do with them because, "...His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death. 1 Sam 2:25.</font>[/QUOTE]The lord clearly says that He destroys his enemies. The fact that Jesus atoned for ALL the sin of the World in ALL times ONCE IN ETERNITY, clearly includes the sin of a person cursing God. However, when the perpetrator of the sin is not convicted by the sin, and with remorse for having sinned confesses the sin and receives forgiveness. there can be no sacrifice acceptable to God for that one's "in your face God" sins. Eli's house exactly fit that condition!

You are the blindest of blind guides! You cannot recognize the truth when is before your eyes. You have completely missed the truth that Jesus' Atonement was for sin, not for persons!

"`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'1 Sam 3:14.
Not so and proved in black and white. Never atoned for means never atoned for it does not mean that they received an atonement it means they did not.</font>[/QUOTE]You are still confusing atonement for persons with Jesus' atonement for sin! Eli's house is persons who sinned greatly against God. The sin that Eli's house was guilty of was atoned, but the people were not forgiven because they refused to stop cursing God! They had no remorse, they had no contrite spirit, they did not repent from sinning; just as the people of Noah's day did not repent and seek God! Eli's house did not repent and seek God.

 

Johnp, there is much foolishness in the manner in which you use scripture to argue your point of view.

You just said that Jesus died for all sin now you say a judgment awaits all men for their deeds? What are you saying?</font>[/QUOTE]It is not me saying it, it is Paul.

Having survived a fire, I can tell you that the experience was devastating. Everything of value to me was gone. Because I did not build with Gold, Silver and precious stones, I had nothing to go forward with, and if it had not been for family and friends, I personally would have given up! Paul is telling us that our deeds will be tested as if by fire. Those deeds that compare to Gold, silver, and precious stones, will survive the fire, those that compare to wood, hay and stubble, are consumed by the fire leaving nothing but worthless ashes. OUR sins are deeds in the same manner that our good works are deeds. No, they are not equals, but they are ours individually, and we are accountable for our deeds because they will be judged, though we are selves are not so judged. Our judgment comes when the book of life is opened and our names are either found there in or they are not found. If found, we receive everlasting life, if not found we ourselves are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14,15)

No it's a nature. Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. (That's a good en! [Cool] )</font>[/QUOTE]Your understanding of sin is as invalid as your understanding of atonement of sin. The sin nature produces sin deeds. It is the deeds of sin that are judged as if by fire, though we ourselves survive as if surviving a fire. Once we submit to the Christ, our sin nature becomes defeat-able and we, through self control are no longer subject to the sin nature but have been set free in Christ....Yet we continue to sin, that is, do deeds of sin. I'm really surprised that you do not know this Johnp, perhaps your Calvinist teachers have failed you.

Judas would think otherwise I'm sure. Could hardly say he did not believe in Jesus. "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him..." A command from God obeyed instantly.</font>[/QUOTE]Judas was hardly a common ordinary person because he was elected by God from the foundation of the world, to be the betrayer so that prophesy could be fulfilled. The prophesy:

The fulfillment:

It would not surprise me in the least to see Judas having everlasting life, because he was elected to his role as the betrayer, and carried it out flawlessly. Someone had to betray the Christ, why not a trusted friend?

No one can make themselves unredeemable Wes you damage the English language. The redeemed have no say. That is what the word means. Redeemed is paid for not asked! [Cool] HaHa! There is no difference between my mums wedding ring and a man when redeemed is used. Redeemed means to buy back your property man or beast or thing. You don't like the idea of the Despot and the ownership of man do you?</font>[/QUOTE]Eli's family did, even raising God's wrath against them. They refused to acknowledge God, choosing instead to curse him continuously. Whomever, refuses to acknowledge God, even though God reveals to them the truth, makes themself unredeemable! You simply do not see the truth.

Too true. Wonder what I meant? [Cool]
I said, "Atonement is for people. It takes away their sin and guilt. Learn what atonement means."
You replied, "Then why do people continue to sin?"
Atonement takes away the guilt of sin judicially not actually as you know we believe? You know that. You know that we believe we remain sinners until our spirits are made perfect in Heaven.</font>[/QUOTE]Look at your own words johnp, you said that atonement "takes away their sin..." If it does so, why do people continue to sin? The atonement that you know fails to do what you say it does!

Really you do need to improve your argument You keep saying you have been here two years you know what we mean.</font>[/QUOTE]Not when you say things that counter what you think you mean, as in the previous quote.

[Cool] A miserable old blind man whose teeth keep falling onto the floor just about sums me up this week! [Cool]</font>[/QUOTE]I don't know about this because my teeth cannot fall out of my mouth, but for those who's teeth are portable, they tell me 'superglue' works.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
He loved me Wes and He gave Himself for me.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, johnp, Jesus does indeed love the whole world, and gave himself the only holy and acceptable sacrifice able to atone for sin, so that we through our faith in Him, can have everlasting life. He loved the whole world and did not die for a mere "elect", but rather to pay the penalty for sin so that out-of-all, those who believe in him shall have everlasting life.

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " Be told.

john.</font>[/QUOTE]The sin of cursing God is included in the sins paid for by Jesus. Eli's house continued to sin by cursing God. That is no different than what Paul tells us about the sexually immoral, the fraud, the liar, etc. none of whom can enter heaven because they refuse to repent of their sin. Eli's house refused to repent of their sin, even though the sin was atoned.

 

Sweet dreams john,

If there are two glasses of water, there can be no wrong glass to drink.

 

"My answer" was simply to quote the NT texts that speak of the SAINTS being "asleep".

Christ said "Lazarus SLEEPS" he did not say "Lazarus' finger sleeps" in John 11. Christ said " I go that I may wake HIM".

In 1Cor 15 its says "We shall not ALL sleep but we shall ALL be changed". It does not say "our bodies never sleep".

I will be glad to "repost" those NT texts "again" if you need them posted again.

Or did you have an actual specific question given what "THEY" say??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Johnp

Yet another FALSE accusation!

 

Jesus Atoned for the sin of the World that I might through faith have everlasting life. I do not need to even know about the atonement for sin in order to receive the benefit of it. All that I need is faith in Jesus, even on his name, in order to receive the benefit of Jesus' atonement for sin.

 

My faith in myself has not sustained me in this life, so I have no expectations of it sustaining me for eternal life.

It is my faith in the Christ that I must maintain in order to receive the gift of the Promise, which is everlasting life. (salvation).

My faith in the Christ is growing daily.