The Atonement.

Therefore, NO MAN DIES FOR or because of SIN!

 

What do you mean by "the person is either in or out..."? In what or out of what?

The Christ's Atonement has nothing to do with WHERE the person is! The Christ's Atonement has nothing to people, it dealt strictly with sin. The fact that people sin is a side issue. Sin is what carried the penalty of death, so it was that penalty of sin that Jesus died to satisfy, and my gracious, what a magnificent job he did in satisfying it ONCE for ALL!

The CHRIST'S atonement DEALT WITH the penalty of SIN, not with people! Why can't you understand that?

SALVATION is not based on atonement, it is based on the faith of the person being saved. Salvation has NEVER been based on atonement! Even under the OT, it was Noahs faith, it was Abraham's faith, it was Isaac's faith, It was Joseph's faith, it was Daniel's faith, it was David's faith, it was Solomon's faith, it was Elisha's faith, it was Elijah's faith, etc., etc., etc. In the NT, Salvation is based on FAITH and faith ALONE!

There is no more penalty for sin for mankind, but it is only those who believe in Jesus, in the FATHER, even on the name of Jesus that can have everlasting life according to Jesus. For all others, they face the second death because they lack faith, not because they sin!

 

When God the Son does the atoning, is there any sin that is not fully atoned?

Why do you not see the truth?

 

That would only be true if instead of providing the "Atoning Sacrifice" on the Cross (As 1John 2:2 says) Christ in fact negated the work of High Priest in Atonement (negating the model that God describes in Lev 16) and ignoring His Own High Priestly work (that we see in HEbrews) completed the atonement WITHOUT IT - at the cross - paying for all sins and completing atonement for all humans.

In that mythical case - no person would be lost due to sin (and since the wages of sin is death Rom 6) no person would owe that debt -- and they could make NO change in that arrangement.

However 2 Cor 5, Matt 18, Rev 20:12, Gal 6, Luke 12:45-49, 1 Cor 6:9-10 (list) all make it clear (even listing the various sins) that mankind burns in hell for sins.

Matt 18 says the debt is fully paid in hell.

Luke 12 says that the debt is "variable" for each individual in hell based on what they knew.

There is no text saying "the wages of something else is death - the second death" as we see for "the wages of sin" in Romans 6.

In Christ,

Bob

 

When God the Son does the atoning, is there any sin that is not fully atoned?

Why do you not see the truth? </font>[/QUOTE]In 1 John 2:2 we see God the Son being made the "Atoning Sacrifice" for ALL the sins of the whole world.

But as God points out in Lev 16 the process of ATONEMENT goes BEYOND the atoning sacrifice where the sin offering is slain. It must INCLUDE the high priestly work of Christ described in HEbrews as starting AFTER the cross (i.e NOT completed AT the cross!)

And that is the flaw in Calvinism's "limited atonement at the cross" idea.

However Calvinism DOES have a case IF they can get Arminians to believe that something BESIDES the "Atoning Sacrifice" (1John 2:2) was completed at the cross.

Fortunately the Bible case for that can not be made.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The point is Bob, that Divinity established the penalty for sin, and Divinity Satisfied the penalty for sin.

Sin is no longer the cause of man's facing the second death in Rev 20!

I don't care if one is Calvinist, Arminian, etc. Truth is Truth!

Furthermore as an analogy, the Model A Ford was a mere foreshadow of that which comes later. However the later automobile cannot meet the same specifications of the Model A Ford, is not manufactured the same way, and does not use the same components. If it did, it would be a replication of the model A. However, we have a new understanding and as a result, a new and present reality. That which applied to the Model A, no longer applies based upon that new reality!

What existed as the reality in Leviticus, is not the reality in the New Testament!

Why stick with that which didn't work when that which does work exists?

Salvation, the gift of God which is everlasting life, is realized through FAITH ALONE now that the penalty of sin has been removed from man by the Christ's atonement for sin! Yes, it is God alone who does the saving, and He saves only those who have faith in him! All others are cast into the lake of fire, the second and final death regardless of the truth that their sins are likewise atoned!

 

In Rev 20 - mankind is judged according to "deeds" written in the books of heaven.

In 1Cor 6 it is a "list of deeds" that we see identified for those who do not "inherit the kingdom of God".

In Luke 12 it is a combination of what you know and what you did that determines the amount of suffering each person in hell must pay (Luke 12:45-49).

In 2 Cor 5 it is "the deeds done" that are judged at the judgment seat of Christ - both the succeeding case of good deeds AND the failing case of evil deeds. And Romans 2 points out that these evil deeds have a specific end time reward.

This is not just a bunch of OT lies being continued in the NT - it is "scripture" - it is "truth" it happens to be NT as well - but it could just as easily have been quoted from the OT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. That is totally false.

#2. The Lev law of Lev 19:18 is quoted repeatedly in the NT - "Love your Neighbor as yourself".

#3. The Lev Law against eating meat with blood in it is upheld in Acts 15.

#4. The Lev Law regarding Passover and the fact that Christ dies on Passover, and fulfills the Passover prediction is specifically shown in the Gospels and stated in 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain".

The Word of God stands -- proven, established, accurate, trustworthy.

In 2Tim 3 Paul says of the OT text that it is ALL inspired and ALL used for correction and doctrine by the NT saints.

I should think that you are a NT saint.

God is the one that defines the teaching on "Atonement" and he does so most exhaustively in His OWN "Day of Atonement" teaching.

Ignoring God's own definition and making one up that suits a given bias is not exegetically sound, Biblically accurate, or supportable "Sola Scriptura".

In Christ,

Bob

 

"And all whose names are not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire!


Two judgements friends: One of deeds, and one of life!

The judgment of deeds is not the final judgment, it is the judgment for rewards, that is what you did with your life is rewarded if Good, rewarding the one who does good, and those deeds that are bad are "consumed" leaving the person with no reward, and nothing to lay at the feet of Jesus. THEN comes the judgment of life, those who have faith in God, are not judged, those who lack faith are judged because their names are not found in the book of life. End of their story!

 

Yes Eli's household for a start?

He saves only those that save themselves is a contradiction at best.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Eli's House;
Do we need to go there again? The sin that Eli's house was engaged in was atoned, along with ALL other sin. Eli's family did not repent and turn away from cursing God, so obviously there can be no benefit from the atonement for them, they remained "unbelievers". And when they went to their deaths, they were judged as unbelievers, hence no atonement for them.

Why is it you cannot accept the truth that we have a role in our own salvation? That role is believing in the Savior, even on his name!

 

BobRyan,
You are correct in that the NT often illustrates a point by quoting the OT. However, since God established a NEW COVENANT in "The Christ", The Christ became the NEW REALITY of the NEW TESTAMENT! Therefore, that which was the reality in the OLD TESTAMENT, is not the REALITY in the NEW TESTAMENT!

Those of us who are SAVED THROUGH FAITH, are not bound by the LAW of the OLD COVENANT because we have accepted the NEW REALITY! We are no longer obligated to sacrificing animals to appease God, who never liked that method anyway, and said so! He is looking for the sacrificial heart of man, kind of like the Marines are looking for a few good men! He wants those who voluntarily sell themselves out to him. He doesn't want those who follow obligatory rituals in order to obtain "appeasement of an angry God".

 

Well that is just like SAUL, who became Paul! Are you destined to be an Apostle against your will too? Are you destined to write 2/3s of the NEW NEW TESTAMENT? Are you going to have to fight off the groupies known as "Johnpians" who will flock to you in droves?

What did God say would not be ATONED? The "Guilt", not the sin of Eli's house! Guilt is the result of sin! The sin was indeed atoned because God the Son would not die for sin unless it included ALL Sin because it was SIN that he died to ATONE, to defeat the power of! If even one sin was not atoned, then Jesus failed to defeat sin! Jesus did not die to atone for guilt, nor unbelief, nor individual persons, He died to atone for SIN! Thus making it possible for every man to have everlasting life through faith.

In dying to atone for sin, Jesus Paid the penalty with his own blood! That however does not change the hearts of people who refuse to acknowledge it. It was the hearts of Eli's household that caused them to continually curse God, which Eli KNEW ABOUT WITH NO ACTION which caused God to swear that oath that no atonement would cover them. God did not say that the sin in which they engaged would not be covered by atonement, but that they would not be covered because of their own hearts. They were no different that modern day Atheist activists except that they took up an agressive posture against God, whereas the atheist denies there is a God. You see, the Atheist will NEVER be covered by atonement either, because they deny the existance of God though their sin of unbelief is atoned.

Don't be fooled into thinking that Atonement for Sin is equal to salvation, it is not! You cannot have everlasting life without the atonement taking place, but it is not atonement that saves...as illustrated by Eli's house!

And I will continue to say it because it is true! If the scripture said the sins of Eli's house will never be atoned, then I would agree with you, but God was not talking to Eli about the particular sin, but about their heart condition! He said there will never be an atonement that covers THEM, and truly Jesus atonement does not cover them, but it does cover their sin! If they had repented, from that sin, and confessed, and shown remorse for their deeds and sought God's forgiveness, God would have forgiven them, but they in their haughtiness, essentially spit in God's face! No God would put up with that!

NO! NO! NO! Eli's house missed out on the universal and unilateral atonement for sin because they continued cursing God!

People do not receive atonement! Atonement was done so that people could have what was previously to be denied them.

Because you cannot read and interpret scripture correctly let's include the story here so that you can see that it is the people of Eli's family that are not covered by the Atonement for All the sin of the world. And it is because they have been cursing God, and ELI knew about it and corrected them not!

The whole story,
1 Sam 3:11-21 Yahweh then said to Samuel,

Samuel lay where he was until morning and then opened the doors of Yahweh's temple. Samuel was afraid to tell Eli about the vision, but Eli called Samuel and said, `Samuel, my son.' `Here I am,' he replied. Eli asked, `What message did he give you? Please do not hide it from me. May God bring unnameable ills on you and worse ones, too, if you hide from me anything of what he said to you.'

Samuel then told him everything, hiding nothing from him. Eli said, `He is Yahweh; let him do what he thinks good.' Samuel grew up. Yahweh was with him and did not let a single word fall to the ground of all that he had told him. All Israel knew, from Dan to Beersheba, that Samuel was attested as a prophet of Yahweh. Yahweh continued to manifest himself at Shiloh, revealing himself to Samuel there,

In Context, 1 Sam 3:14 tells me what I have been telling you!

 

#1. The New Covenant is introduced in the OT -- not the NT.

#2. The Language of the New Covenant is found in the OT and defined by it.

#3. The Christ is in fact that Greek for "Messiah" which is the OT Bible doctrine on God the Son coming to die for our sins.

#4. There is in fact only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-9 and that is the New Covenant. That ONE Gospel was "preached to us JUST AS IT WAS TO THEM" Heb 4:2.

#5. The attempt to turn scripture into a "two Gospel" Bible is condemned in Gal 1:6-11.

#7. This is why the NT authors (like Paul) can argue for the CONTINUED doctrinal authority of the OT text saying "ALL Scripture" ( a primary reference to the OT) "is given by inspiration AND IS STILL USED for Doctrine, reproof, correction"

["Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our Faith??? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God!!" Rom 3:31

I think the text is clear enough.

This is why we see the OT doctrine of the NEW Covenant with the LAW of God WRITTEN on the HEART in Hebrews 8 -- rather than seeing the "LAw of God abolished in the heart" as some would hope.

You have this all wrong. The sacrifices were simply a liturgy for the OT church pointing forward in time to the sacrifice of Christ. God never said "I must abolish my word so you can stop sacrificing" as you seem to suppose.

Secondly - the OT saints (as we see them in Heb 11) include Moses as he stands with Christ in Matt 17. He is fully forgiven, fully "saved" as he stands on the Mt of Transfiguration - an OT saint SAVED by grace through faith under the ONE Gospel - the New Covenant promise of the Law of God written in his heart -- fully realized.

This was true of all OT saints.

Because of this -- you need not fear meeting a saint in heaven who says "a new heart?? Why no I just had a new sheep each year when I came to sacrifice. I am still basically the same depraved sinner I always was!".

That "two gospel" idea - was never in place.

Nobody is saved while under the Old Covenant of "Obey and Live" and nobody is lost while under the New Covenant which has the Law of God WRITTEN ON THE TABLETS of the HUMAN heart -- not merely external and on tablets of stone.

You are getting the idea.

So then do you consider all HEb 11 OT saints to be lost or just "unwanted"?? Or do you admit that they are born-again saved-by-grace saints?

In Christ,

Bob

 

The fact that this judgment based on "deeds" also includes the fact that the lost do not have their names written in the book of life by the time of the Great White Throne Judgment - is not surprising.

The wicked are raised in the 2nd resurrection - and over them the second death does have power.

In that resurrection their judgment - according to their deeds is explicit and then they are cast into the lake of fire.

As it turns out none of the wicked have their names written in the book of life by the post-millennial time of Rev 20 and the lake of fire.

This post-millennial judgment where the deeds are evaluated is clear.

But this is not the judgment of the saints - because in Daniel 7 we see that the wicked will persecute the saints "UNTIL judgment is passed in FAVOR of the saints". - and the text points out that this is PRIOR to the return of Christ.

So in Rev 20 we see the "final judgment" - post-millennial with the lake a fire and we see that it is a judgment based on deeds as the text of Rev 20 points out.

One WTJ day - one event (the 2nd resurrection) one lake of fire, one process that includes the books of heaven and judgment based on deeds.

We see this again in Romans 2.

We see the reference again in 1Cor 6 as already pointed out. With the list of bad deeds given.

And so we see in Luke 12:45-49 that the level/degree of punishment of that Rev 20 event is baed on the knowledge of the wicked PLUS the deeds that they did sending them to fiery hell.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That has not been done!

 

But we are NOT BOUND, tied up, chained down, handcuffed, held accountable to the OLD TESTAMENT law, because the New covenent is the covenant of GRACE in which we who have accepted the Messiah are not condemned by the law, but are saved through faith, while God is in his Grace.

Only those who reject the Son of God, remain bound by the Law, because it is by the law they shall be judged!

 

If we "ESTABLISH the LAW" by our faith -- then we are in obedience to it - rather than rebellion against it.

If the NEW Covenant is the LAW of God written on the heart - then we are in obedience to it - not rebellion against it.

If being "BOUND" means "obedience rather than rebellion" you have a problem.

If being "bound" means that we are condemned by that Law "since it condemns ALL mankind showing us to be sinners" then the death of Christ produces forgiveness and reconciliation - PEACE with God (justification Romans 5:1) as we see the saints of Heb 11 having FULL acceptance with God. In fact PLEASING to God.

(Particularly in the case of Enoch taken to heaven without dying).

Enoch and Moses standing WITH CHRIST (in Matt 17) show OT saints fully forgiven, fully in glory, fully accepted by God under the ONE Gospel, the one and only New Covenant with the Law of God written on the heart.

Hence - the OT scripture's unqualfied support and endorsement in 2Tim 3:15-17.

And the "sola scriptura" model for proving doctrine BASED on the OT - in Acts 17:11 "Searching the scriptures daily to SEE IF the things spoken to them by Paul were SO".

In Christ,

Bob