The Atonement.

Hardly just "getting the idea" I have long held that truth!

"admit"? I rather prefer the word DECLARE regarding the salvation of the OT Saints who not only were saved through their faith in God, but through whom we have wonderful truths clearly illustrated in their lives.

Don't be too quick to shortchange my understanding of scriptures that I have held for 5 plus decades. They are very much akin to your own.

 

Wes,

I did not mean to offend. I am simply pointing out that the "ONe Gospel" model is found in both NT and OT and that the scripture used in the NT by NT saints was in fact the OT. It is reliable.

I am also pointing out that the ONE Gospel model does not allow for OT saints to be "Saved by works" or anything other than faith - in fact by grace through faith.

And then of course - my initial point was that atonement is MORE than "payment for sin" in the form of the "Atoning Sacrifice" of 1John 2:2 on the cross. Beyond the sin offering there is also the work of the High Priest. And "yes" Christ DOES do that work for us for He IS our High Priest even now.

Atonment deals with each individual life - the books of record the actual sins committed and the "fruits" of Matt 7 where Christ Himself argues "by their fruits you shall know them".

Of all that CLAIM to be saints - MAtt 7 shows a "juddgment" based on fruits that determines who is in fact a born-again new-creation and who is not. Once that is completed - then the Daniel 7 event is reached "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

At that point (on a corporate - Daniel 7 basis) the wicked are fully known and the saints are fully known to a corporate (non-God) courtroom.

The Atonement is then completed for the saints and the final decision reached "Let him who is filthy be filthy still" and "let him who is righteous be righteous still".

When atonement is complete it is ONLY completed for those who are saints. There is no such thing as a saint fully atoned - who goes to hell.

The statement "let him who is righteous be righteous still" is made at a point in time when the atonement process has ended.

In Rev 15 we see a point in time given where the intercessory work of Christ on man's behalf must end so the plagues can be poured out.

At that point - Atonement is completed for all mankind. No more work is needed for that to be completed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Atonement is a done deal, it is sealed in heaven for eternity. There will never be another atonement for sin, because sin's penalty has been removed from ALL mankind forever!

Why must the Christ be continually working the atonement? He completed it 2000 earth years ago! Therefore it is completed.

You preachers that harp on sin are telling the wrong story! Set that aside and concentrate on faith! IT is through faith that we are saved!

 

An interesting speculation. How do you know that He finished the High Priestly work for the Atonement already?

I know that according to 1John 2:2 He finished the "Atoning Sacrifice" part of that Lev 16 atonement but the UNIQUE and SUBSEQUENT ministry of the High Priest defined in Lev 16 could not even START until Hebrews 8 when we are told that HE STARTED His work as our High Priest.

So where did you find that it was ended in scripture?

No place?? How surprising.

Well I can find a place telling us when it WILL end. (Hint - it is in Rev 15 just prior to the 7 last plagues)

Still no text??

Well I find one for the "Atoning SACRIFICE" being over -- it is in 1John 2:2.

What about the High Priestly work of Christ in Heaven -- you know the "UNIQUE" High Priestly work done ONLY on the Day of Atonement... are you claiming that it was finished BEFORE Christs OWN High Priestly work BEGAN in Heb 8-9???

Do you think you can support that idead from scripture? (UNIQUE High Priestly work finished before He STARTS it)

I see so in the TYPE (Day of Atonement) which POINTS to CHRIST for the SUBSTANCE of all those annual feasts is Christ - the High Priest is NOT CHRIST but is LEFT as TYPE and never meets its antitype???!!!

Where do you come up with this stuff??

IN Colossians 2 we find that all these yearly feasts POINT to Christ and HE IS the substance of those TYPES. He is the great antitype!

In Heb 8-9 we see the "predicted" ANTITYPE role of Christ as High Priest.

In Lev 16 we see a TYPE pointing out the UNIQUE role of High Priest in the yearly services at the Day of Atonement.

And you claim that this TYPE never meets its ANTITYPE in Christ as High Priest but REMAINS as a "type" with Aaron being the first and the last??

How odd.

It means that in both His role as SACRIFICE and as HIGH Priest He IS the great ANTITYPE fulfilling each of the PREDICTIONS made in the TYPES as given by God Himself.

You failed to study Heb 9 carefully where the TWO PHASE ministry IS pointed out relative to Christ's High Priestly work in the HEAVENLY sanctuary the one that is EXACTLY copied (given as a pattern) for the EARTHLY sanctuary (according to Heb 8:1-6)

By His death. IN 1Cor 5 we find that "CHrist our PASSOVER has BEEN slain" the Passover Lamb was Christ the events pointed to by the SPRING feasts predict the work of Christ at his first coming. The events depicted in the FALL feasts point to His Work as High Priest and His 2nd coming!

It is all pretty easy - but you have to pay attention to the "Details" and there can be no glossing over them and saying that the High Priestly role in TYPE is ONLY fulfilled in ANTITYPE by the same earthly High Priests that did the TYPE. (Which of course would be a silly application of TYPE and ANTITYPE - obviously)

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is where most Arminians make the mistake of agreeing with Calvinists.

The Calvinist then having fully snookered the Arminians on the idea that NOT ONLY is the ATONING SACRIFICE of 1John 2:2 finished but so also is CHrist's High Priestly work (started in Heb 8 AFTER the cross) as it is predicted/described in the Lev 16 TYPE!

The "benefit" for Calvinism is that by DEFNITION all those who are fully atoned for are saved and NTHER payment can be requested AFTER ATONEMENT is settled and applied in their favor!

Since ALL agree that ALL are not saved but some are lost and some saved -- we have "LIMITED ATONEMENT" when it is all over.

Combining that truth with the Calvinist error that Atonement INCLUDING Christ's High PRiestly work is finished BEFORE His Heb 8 High Priestly work STARTS -- leads Calvinism to the "limited atonement at the Cross" error and leaves many Arminians "squirming and twisting" trying to find a way out of the dilemma!

Your idea of mankind suffering in hell for OTHER reasons that are NOT about sin at all is like roasting saints in hell for some "other reason" than sin and rebellion against God.

God has already defined ATONEMENT as INCLUDING BOTH the "Atoning Sacrifice" of Christ AND the UNIQUE High Priestly role specified in Lev 16.

It is too late to downsize His Lev 16 definition to JUST "Atoning Sacrifice".

So yes - the Atoning Sacrifice WAS completed 2000 years ago! But now according to Heb 8 the High Priestly work of Christ has begun.

And contrary to Calvinist hopes - that High Priestly role of Christ did not END BEFORE it started!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey no fair. My post WAS the last one listed before you resurrected this thread. If someone wanted me to expand more on some question they only had to ask!!

 

Jesus is BOTH the Lamb (Atoning Sacrifice) AND the High PRiest (Heb 8-9) as the Bible teaches. Impossible to start ignoring that "now".

The idea that the TYPE role of Christ as High Priest in Lev 16 gets fulfilled only by the MAN Aaron is your idea of "fulfillment" not mine. I have no idea how you are going to defend such wild speculation.


quote:
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This is where most Arminians make the mistake of agreeing with Calvinists.
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Arminians should always think twice before doing it.

 

The Christ was NEVER the Goat! He was, the Sacrificial "Lamb of God", the one without blemish. He was the one sacrificed! It is his blood that atoned for sin!

Goats were never sacrificed, they always managed to escape, thus we have the term scapegoat.

 

Hark! I hear a hissing sound. It is by grace through faith Wes for the whole counsel of God.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]How long are you going to ignore the truth that our salvation is because God 'favors' us because of our faith in Him.

It is in God's grace that he saves us, it is HIS power, not the power of Grace! Grace has no power to do any saving whatever. The person of God is who saves us, Grace is the dominant attribute of God when he does the saving. AND, he saves only those who have faith in Him therefore: While God is in his grace we are saved through our faith and not of our selves, our salvation is a gift of God, not of works lest any man would have cause to boast!

Keep your hissing to yourself!

 

IN some parts your statement is true but in the LEv 16 DAy of Atonement model it is TWO GOATS. The Lord's Goat is called "The Sin Offering" and that is the "Atoning Sacrifice" of 1John 2:2.

In Lev 16 God gives a very instructive model of Atonement to be studied in terms of Salvation type and antitype.

Christ is the LAMB of the Passover and is the "Lord's Goat" -- "Sin Offering" of the Day of Atonement.

In Christ,

Bob

 

And what does knowing that do to Salvation?

Nothing, because the act of atonement on God the Son's part, removed the penalty of sin from man's part. Therefore whoever believes in Jesus, even on his name, does not die the second death, but passes from eternal death into everlasting life because the penalty for the person's sin has been paid!

Not only that, the penalty for ALL sin in ALL times was removed so that man by believing in Jesus does indeed have everlasting life just like Jesus says in John 3:16. It does not matter if the person is on the "elect" list or not, if he believes, he has life!

That means that any out of ALL can through faith have everlasting life. It does not mean that ALL are saved however, because not all will come to faith in God or His son. It is those who refuse to come to faith that are still destined to be cast into the lake of fire.

NO HUMAN KNOWS WHO IS OR WHO AIN'T!

 

Who is that post TO - and what is a response to?

 

There is no question that Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice" suffers and dies "For OUR sins and NOT our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" so we can certainly agree there.

But the fact that Christ's High Priestly work is "ALSO" essential in HIS own ATONEMENT model is not my idea - it is God's model. May I also submit that it "is of significance" - as are all of God's details in the Gospel.

If the Atonement for MY sin involves not only the death of Christ as "Atoning Sacrifice" BUT ALSO His work FOR ME as my High Priest then I must come before Him (as Paul directs us to do in the book of Hebrews) and through Him to the Father. I must "die daily" as Paul says in 1Cor 15 - choosing daily to submit my will to His.

Christ promises that just before the 2nd coming - "judgment will be passed in favor of the saints" and then the kingdom will be turned over to Christ and the saints AND after that the wicked will no longer be able to persecuted the saints (obviously since the 2nd coming would put a stop to all that).

As even the Jews note - the Day of Atonement process involves God judging the whole world.

Your view of a "Completed atonement" where all sins has been "Finally dealt with and CAN NOT come up again to be paid Again" is very correct for those for whom atonement is completed (that is the FEW of Matt 7 -- those that are the subjects of the statement in Daniel 7 "Judgement was passed IN FAVOR OF the saints").

However that event happens as the transition event marking the 2nd coming of Christ according to Daniel 7.

Christ's statement was made pre-cross and was as true then as it is now. It never depended on final atonement being completed as if that had to happen BEFORE it would be true. The promise still remains to "WHOSOEVER believes" just as when it was given pre-cross by Christ.

Christ argues in Matt 18 in the story about "forgiveness revoked" that it is payment of the original debt that must be made and that the Father will demand at the end of time.

Christ argues in Luke 12:45-29 that it is the kind of deeds done combined with the knowledge of the person that determines the degree of debt paid in hell with some owing "many stripes" and some "few".

Even Rev 20 speaks to the fact that it is the "deeds" that are judged as does 2Cor 5 -- deeds "both good and evil".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I stand corrected

 

You have not proved its value regarding the CHRIST'S Atonement for sin.

So, No I do not retract because I do not believe it is in error regarding the CHRIST!