The Atonement.

The scapegoat is never the "Sin offering". IT does not die for sins -- the scapegoat models NO substitutionary sin offering!

Only the Lord's Goat is called "The SIN OFFERING" in Lev 16. That goat ALONE is a TYPE of Christ -- not the scapegoat.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Christ is only the sin offering. Christ is our substitutionary atonement - never our scapegoat!

Wes is correct on saying that any attempt to make Christ a scapegoat is to make Him something OTHER than the LORD's goat-- something OTHER THAN the sin offering.

Please pay attention to the details.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why YES! I do deny that Jesus took the blame for me! Yes indeed I do!

The one who satisfies another's debt never assumes the other's guilt!

The Atoner does not assume the condition of the one atoned.

Sin made everyone of us "dead men walking"! Jesus the only one without blame, received the penalty we deserved, and paid it in full for all of us who are guilty and deserving of blame, thus freeing us from the death penalty! NO MAN DIES BECAUSE OF SIN, but those who do die the second death die because they lack faith in God.

He did not take our blame upon himself, we are still guilty of sinning! And it was through one man that sin entered the world, and ALL have sinned. Jesus the only Son of God and the Only one not guilty of sin, PAID the PENALTY that sin "merits" in our stead. OUR death penalty paid by another who is BLAMELESS in order that we might have life everlasting through our faith IN HIM.

He did not accept our guilt (the blame)! We must still confess our sins to God and anyone else against whom we have sinned, in order to receive forgiveness (the removal or covering up of blame) for our sins (1 John 1:9)

 

Any time one violates law, whether spiritual, natural or civil law there is a consequence for doing so, and blame is assessed to the violator.

However, when one who is blameless, stands up for, and as a form of payment, takes the "required" punishment the violation demands, or "Pays the price" the guilty party was levied, that atoner does not assume the guilt of the party being atoned.

In order to respond to you post, in our relationship with the Christ, He has paid the debt that we acrue through sin. He did it one time for ALL sin past, present, and future. Now I don't know about you, but to me THAT IS GRACE!

Even though our sin has been atoned (paid for in our stead), our guilt remains with us, because the violator always retains the guilt of the violation, until and unless forgiven of the CONFESSED (Acknowledged) VIOLATION! Atonement is not forgiveness, it is substitutionary restitution. Forgiveness is not give when not asked for!

With the penalty having been paid for us, we are not held responsible to pay the penalty. Therefore, it is through our faith in Jesus that we have everlasting life, while those who lack faith in Jesus, though their sins are likewise atoned, do not receive everlasting life because they have no faith in Jesus, and he therefore has no further obligation to them. They then get discarded into the lake of fire.

No Johnp, I do not agree that "Transgression of law might be viewed in one way as a debt that needs to be paid for but transgression of law also carries guilt with it". Transgression of law is "the act" that establishes an indebtedness that must be paid for, it is not the indebtedness itself.

 

In the model of Lev 16 - "The Day of Atonement" it is at the END of the year that final atonement is made. But all during the year FORGIVENESS was received as Lev points out "and their sins are forgiven". So atonement comes AFTER forgiveness in God's model. As it turns out - God is right.

The Atonement includes "The Atoning Sacrifice" of Christ on the Cross but ALSO the work of Christ as our High Priest. UNTIL the work is over - ATONEMENT is not complete. One can not slice and dice the work of Christ so that one part is not necessary.

In the Atonement model forgiveness for ALL sins is already claimed BEFORE the atonement work of the High Priest starts. This means that the books of record (as described in Dan 7 and Rev 20) are written and evaluated. When that evaluation is complete "Judgement is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" as Daniel 7 points out.

ONLY then is Atonement complete and only then does all persecution of the saints end (according to Daniel 7).

When that point is reached there will be no way for any saint to be "ATONED but not FORGIVEN".

The sequence is always in the form of "Forgiveness first" and Atonement second. Moses and Elijah are on the mountain with Christ in Matt 17 -- but it is not until that future Daniel 7 event that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" -- and certainly Moses and Elijah have to be considered "saints".

In Christ,

Bob

 

If you are practicing Judahism and living under the law I strongly recommend you apply your schedule.

Who today is our priest who offers animal sacrifice?
Who today is the Goat?
Where today is the Sanctuary for the reported activity to take place?

Who today brings a bull and a ram to church with them?
Is Consecrated linen the normal apparel for such activities today?

Are we part of the Israelits that Leviticus discusses?

I could go on through the rest of the chapter but I think you understand where I'me Going. Where are the those things Leviticus describes today? The ONCE for ALL Atonement was also for all times. This priestly exercise is no longer valid.

[ June 11, 2005, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Wes, Outwest ]

 

Guilt is not sin! It is one consequence of sinning, and guilt is not transferable from one to another. That is, if I sin, you cannot assume for yourself, my guilt, nor can you assume for yourself, my debt for sinning. However you can stand in my stead and pay my debt for sinning, thus removing the debt from me. That is called atonement or propitiation.

Where in the New Testament scripture is Jesus described as a "guilt offering? Sin offering Yes, but not a guilt offering. Nor does He describe himself using that term. You must gain an understanding of what "guilt" is.

In God's eyes, and in the eye's of others, we are viewed as guilty for the crime, sin, dastardly deed, we have done. Yet, not one of them can have OUR GUILT. With the exception of God, the other's all have their own guilt to deal with, and you cannot assume any of their guilt either, and you'd be foolish to try to.

Consider that no one confesses or acknowledges that for which there is no guilt. If you do not experience the guilt of sinning, for what reason would you ever desire to repent? When you receive forgiveness for sinning, your guilt burden is lifted because forgiveness relieves guilt. When we confess our sins to God and repent from them, He graciously forgives us and forgets that we sinned.

If our guilt could have been assumed by Jesus, and he did assume our guilt, then His death is justified because he became us! But, He being completely INNOCENT of sin, died IN OUR STEAD, Taking the penalty for the sins we commit IN OUT PLACE, not AS us! He did not assume anything that is ours, he stood IN OUR PLACE. He died completely GUILTLESS! That is why His death Atones for sin, the INNOCENT for the GUILTY. If He had died "guilty of our sin" then his death was completely justified in satisfying the penalty of sin. His death is an Act of God's grace toward mankind so that Man does not have to die to pay the penalty for sinning. Jesus did that for ALL sin in ALL times. Mankind HAS BEEN SET FREE from the penalty of sin. OUR Salvation is, therefore, a matter of FAITH in God alone! For by God's act of grace toward man we are saved through FAITH, not by anything in us or of us, our salvation is a gift of God, NOT of works lest any man should boast.

 

#1. The Jews did not invent scripture God did. You can not condemn God's Word in the OT as merely "Judaism" without condemning the author of the text of scripture as well. Peter points out that God's Word (OT) is still valid as does Paul.

#2. Christ is THE High Priest that GOD's ceremonial system pointed to -- He is doing in FACT what God's own system predicted He would do.

#3. Christ is THE sacrifice that ALL of GOD's animal sacrifices pointed to -- He did exactly what those animal sacrifices predicted.

#4. Christ IS NOW offering HIS OWN BLOOD in heaven (see Heb 9 and 10) in heaven FOR us - as our High Priest.

In Heaven. It is the TRUE sanctuary Made by God Himself!

The author of Hebrews is very explicit about telling us that the work of Christ is taking
place IN God's own heavenly sanctuary - on our behalf.

</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob

 

If I am right then Bob said that the 'rest' of the atonement, after the sacrifices, continues, not the sacrifices themselves. Is that right Bob?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]That is true - the sacrifices end at the cross just as Hebrews 10 states. Christ put a stop to sin offering and sacrifice by His own "ONCE FOR ALL" sacrifice because the blood of animals "could never forgive sin". Those sacrifices were predictive church liturgy pointing forward to the work of the Messiah in dying a substitutionary atoning death for mankind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello John -

#1. The scapegoat is never called "an offering"

#2. The scapegoat is never called "a guilt offering"

#3. In "every case" where "Guilt offering" is used it is a burnt offering or "sin offering". There is no such thing in scripture as a "guilt offering" that is not slain on the spot.

So given these undeniable facts - where are you getting your ideas about "guilt offering" being inserted into Lev 16? Are you just making up a new definition for "Guilt offering"?

Is someone telling you to insert that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello John -

That is true - the SIN offering in Lev 16 is the only one of the "two goats" that would qualify as a guilt offering since all guilt offerings are slain according to the rules for offerings given in the book of Leviticus.

That does not help your case - but it does help mine.

The point remains.

Look at the details in Lev 16 - after the lot is cast and the scapegoat is identified - it is the OTHER goat that is called "The Lord's goat".

ONLY THEN when the "Lord's goat" is identified after the lots are cast is the term "sin offering" used and applied ONLY to the Lord's Goat.

Let's note "the details".

There is just no way to fudge the text. It is pretty blatant. EVen the freed slaves from Egypt got this.

And in that you did well. But then you eisegeted the idea that a guilt offering is EVER identified as an offering "not immediately slain". You also suggest that this "guilt offering" idea is to be found where it is not - Lev 16.

Now you are getting back on track. The "rap" that you "OWE" is DEATH - the 2nd death. That is why guilt offerings ALWAYS are slain by direct and explicit command. They MUST die because the model is "SUBSTITUTIONARY" atoning sacrifice.

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

This shown in scripture with the yearly vs daily. In the daily events people are forgiven day by day and bring offerings in day by day. But then at the END of the year - APPART from any individul SIN event - ALL sins are dealt with for ALL have had forgiveness claimed for them by that END point.

It would be more understandable if you would take your views from the actual text.

If this is your way of "dissecting the work of Christ so that His High Priestly work is not essential to salvation" then you have more "reading to do " in scripture.

Try 1John 2:1.

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Our "Access" to God is through that ongoing ministry.

Our Forgiveness is through that ongoing ministry.

Our CONFIDENCe in the Gospel and salvation and acceptance beofore the father is in that ongoing ministry.

It is not an "either or" fallacy - it is a "BOTH AND" rule.

In Heb 8 and 9 Christ is seen to be STARTING His work as High Priest AFTER his ascension into heaven.

There is no escaping that. No way to "edit" it out.

In Lev 16 - the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:2) is slain in vs 9.

But the atonement process does not end until vs 27 when ALL that the High Priest does is completed.

Hint: Jewish teaching is "still" proclaiming this work of the High Priest as a "judgment day for all the world".

In Heb 8 we see the High Priestly ministry of Christ begin. In Heb 9 we see that it has the two-phase ministry model as God defines it. In Rev 15:8 we see the point where all ministry in the Heavenly sanctuary ends.

"Details details".

That would be true if the chapter ended in vs 9.

It does not.

Every scholar on earth admits to this obvious fact about the High Priest's work on the Day of Atonement.

In Christ,

Bob