The Atonement.

JohnP,

Of the translations of scripture that I have, Young's is the only translation using that phrase. The other translations express it as "sin offering". Even so, this is Isaiah giving his impression of the Lord's will and actions. And Not God himself saying this, else it would be in the first person, and not another telling the tale.

 

In Heaven. It is the TRUE sanctuary Made by God Himself!</font>[/QUOTE]Then where in heaven is the wilderness or desert, and are there goat's in heaven? Doesn't God separate the sheep from the Goat's before judgement, not allowing the goats into heaven?

 

In any case - every mention of "Guilt offering" in the book of Leviticus shows it to be a reference to "Sin offering" or "burnt offering" -- it is never a reference to an animal not sacrificed - not killed immediately.

And it is not found in the case of Lev 16 at all.

The "reason" is that Lev 16 is NOT a case where someone commits a sin and then goes and schedules a "Day of Atonement" service.

In other words - NO specific sin is causing the service. Rather it is ALL the sins of the ENTIRE year "in general". The "sins in general" scope may be the reason that there is no mention of "guilt offering" in Lev 16.

In Christ,

Bob

 

God is the one that provides HIS own model for atonement and SHOWS it to include both the sacrifice of the sin offering AND The High Priestly work of Christ.

The Matt 25 model of separating humans (Sheep from goats) is not an immediate image in Lev 16 (though you could certain read that into it based on the Hebrew teaching of judgment on that day).

IN Lev 16 it is A Sin offering vs A scapegoat that is never turned into "an offering". This is not the same as the dividing of humanity into sheep and goats.

At the cross Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice.

In Heb 8-10 we see him START His role as High Priest.

In Daniel 7 we see that prior to the 2nd coming and the ending of all persecution of the saints - He must finish judgment (judgment is finally passed in favor of the saints in Daniel 7 AND THEN the end comes). In Rev 14:6-9 we see a message going to mankind while both good and evil are still here -- "The Hour of His Judgment has Come"

In Rev 15 the ministry in the heavenly sanctuary must end - so that the 7 last plagues (Rev 16) can begin and the 2nd coming of Rev 19 will follow.

For "sure" by that time all the High Priestly work is complete and therefore anything going on with the Sanctuary and atonement is complete.

In Lev 16 when the High Priest leaves the sanctuary he transfers sin to the scapegoat and the goat goes into the wilderness. Since this act of judgment takes place after the work is completed in the sanctuary - it may well be something that happens AFTER the sanctuary-ending event in Rev 15:8.

The Scapegoat is in "contrast" to the Lord's Goat which tells me that it is "in contrast" to Christ. Representing the wicked in some way. It is not "an offering" and is certainly not "the sin offering" of Lev 16.

======================

In any case - the reason for pointing all this out is that once atonement is complete in the heavenly sanctuary (lets say Rev 15:8 for the sake of argument) there is no such thing as "undoiing" one's atonement or changing the judgment that was already "passed in favor of the saints".

It is at that time that God says "Let him who is filthy be filthy still and let him who is righteous be righteous still" the system becomes "static" no more changes, no more judging, no "undoing" the final state.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Johnp said,

Why would one conclude falsely that ATONEMENT=FORGIVENESS

There is no synonym for Atone, that equates to "FORGIVE"

Likewise there is no meaning in forgive that equates to ATONE.

Nothing in Forgiveness that relates to ATONEMENT.

One cannot equate atonement and forgiveness!

 

Hello John.

Interesting that you follow that claim by "not quoting" Lev 16 (since guilt offering is not mentioned there and you have nothing to quote to back up your claim there).

My point "remains" that guilt offerings are ALWAYS sin offerings or burnt offerings (Read the entire manual the book of Leviticus. There is no exception!).

God is "deliberately" placing the guilt offerings during the year AT the TIME the offense is comitted!! Because it is WHEN we SIN that we go to God and obtain forgiveness. THis was true of Abel, Enoch, Elijah, Moses all OT and NT saints. AT THE TIME of the event of sin - forgiveness is obtain because THEN and ONLY THEN is the guilt offering rendered.

ATONEMENT - was ANOTHER process added to that pre-condition of FORGIVENESS received at the END of the year. It was "specific" in that it was NOT initiated by guilt associated with THAT DAY.

No guilt offering. ALL the guilt offerings for ALL the sins for the year had ALREADY been made!!

You miss the point when you point to Christ as the guilt offering since I do not claim that HE is not. But the point is that God shows this to be ANOTHER aspect of salvation BEYOND the guilt offering. (an offering ALWAYS SLAIN). Christ's death accomplishes MORE the forgiveness it ALSO accomplishes ATONEMENT as part of that atonement process which must INCLUDE the UNIQUE high priestly work God specified for that event.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If you as a 'literalist' take joy in that, then gloat to your hearts content! You remain wrong in not seeing that Isaiah, in that quoted scripture, is expressing his own thought on the matter, and not delivering prophesy, or the direct words of God. So how can it be God breathed?

I do not accept nor believe that God the Son was ever a goat! Regardless of what you say! You haven't sufficiently proved your case!


Do you still believe that atonement = forgiveness?

 

You still believe that the atoner bears the guilt of the sinner? How is that possible? In a court of law does the lawyer for the defendant bear the charge against his client? If yes, and the Court sentences the defendant for the crime, does the lawyer serve out the sentence too?

Why then do you insist that the atoner bears the guilt of the sinner?

 

Johnp,
How can you use words that you do not know the meaning of to prove a concept that is not biblical?

You lose!

 

You know that looks like you are saying that Jesus was never the Goat. You have mis-typed somehow? You have heard of the Scapegoat?

The Scapegoat gets the blame man.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]This is where it "looks like" JohnP is arguing for Christ being the Scapegoat.

This is why I keep arguing that that this is not the case and this is why "I thought" John P was arguing for other "guilt offerings" being Christ "As IF" the Lev 16 text had the scapegoat being called "a guilt offering".

So you deny that Jesus took the blame for you?

And you Wes? Do you say Jesus did not take your blame?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Here that idea seems to be firmly what John P "was" arguing for...

All on page 5

In Christ,

Bob

 

The priests in the levitcal system of God - are shown to transfer sin from the sacrifice to the sanctuary - but they are never said to be guilty of the sin or to "owe" or to "pay" for it. The animal sacrifice is the only actor pointing to Christ's actual "Atoning Sacrifice" where He pays the debt of sin - nailing our "Certificate of debt" to the cross.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Having established that only the "SIN OFFERING" is an offering for sin in Lev 16 and that this is ONLY the Lord's goat.

Lets take a closer look at what is NOT the sin offering, what does NOT make substitionary atonement what is NOT "sacrificed", what does NOT give its life for others - the Scapegoat!

The High Priest comes out and places all the sins on the head of the scapegoat and it simply "walks off" into the wilderness according to Lev 16. This is done after the work in the sanctuary ends (so in our type meets antitype picture - it may well be at the end-point of Rev 15:8 where the heavenly sanctuary is shut down so the 7 last plagues (Rev 16) and 2nd coming (Rev 19) can take place.

Is there an argument for "guilt assigned" AFTER the end point where "Juddgment was passed IN FAVOR of the saints"???

Maybe.

The Daniel 7 courtroom would certainly "know" by then who the saints are vs those who in Matt 7 made a CLAIM to forgiveness but do not have the fruit of a changed life SHOWING that they are in fact "born again". All such "false-saints" could not have Christ covering for their sins. Their sins return to their own heads. The Sanctuary work of Christ avails them nothing.

In the same way - the exact measure of the "added guilt of Satan" of tempting the members of God's kingdom is finally known. He is "guilty" for tempting his own subjects but he has ADDED guilt for tempting those who are found to be members of the Kingdom of God.

Here again - the idea of degrees of guilt and God having an exact measure of "exactly" what is owed for the debt of sin and what will be "paid" by all the wicked (including Satan and his angels) in fiery hell "prepared for the devil and his angels".

At the 2nd coming (Rev 19 and 20:1-5) we have the first resurrection (the resurrection of the righteous depicted at the rapture in 1Thess 4). At that point all the saints are taken to heaven to be "With Christ" in His fathers house - the place prepard for them for 1000 years.

The earth is then left with "destroyed cities" and "all the earth covered with corpses" and "only the birds to feast on the dead" with hills moving back and forth and clouds covering the sky so no star or sun or moon shines... for a 1000 years.

This is the barren "Wilderness" in which Satan and his angels must remain for 1000 years. AT then end - they perish in the lake of fire following the 1000 years, Their suffering and death is not "subtitutionary" and fully/finally pays only for their own debt of sin.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If you are a child of God, you should pay closer attention to what your daddy says! You often miss the message because you don't!

 

Isaiah 53 is not one of the verses in Lev 16 so it is not possible to claim that Lev 16 says anything about "a guilt offering" without actually quoting something from Lev 16.

You seem to reject that form of Bible study - it is called "exegesis".

(That seems like a stretch for some people).

Having said that --

Christ is the High Priest of Lev 16, He is the Sin offering of Lev 16, he is the Passover Lamb of Passover, He is the burnt offerings and the sin offerings. ALL the animal sacrifices (including Guilt offerings where the animal was killed) point to some aspect of the great work of God at the cross. But we don't cram the Day of Atonement into Passover or into first fruits or into guilt offerings. Each of these salvation pictorials reveals its own set of unique and distinct truths about the Gospel plan of salvation.

In Christ,

Bob

In Christ,

Bob