The Atonement.

He is not my daddy He is my Father. Thank you Wes for the advise. If He wants me to pay attention I think He knows how to attract me.

Is Jesus guilt bearer or not?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]NOT!

 

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Isaiah 53 is not one of the verses in Lev 16 so it is not possible to claim that Lev 16 says anything about "a guilt offering" without actually quoting something from Lev 16.
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Lev 16 does not mention anything about "Guilt offering" and ISaiah 53 says nothing about the Day of Atonement.

You keep making statements about Lev 16 speaking about a "Guilt offering" - and it does not... only to follow with claims about Isaiah 53 talking about the Day of Atonement and claiming that the Lev 16 event has a guilt offering specifice (Isiah 53 never mentions the Day of Atonement nore does it quote Lev 16).

You can't just make stuff up to make a point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello John

That was covered in Hebrews 7. And in 8:4 Paul argues that if Christ were still on earth pre-cross incarnated form -- "HE would not a priest at all".

But only in His HEAVENLY role - is He the TYPE for the ANTITYPE of "Preist" according to Heb 8.

You keep declaring victory over yourself counting eggs before they hatch.

Passover was AFTER Melchizedek and yet "CHRIST our PASSOVER is SLAIN" 1 Cor 5.

In all the Lev 23 annual "TYPES" Christ is the great "ANTITYPE" to which they point (Colossians 2).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ok - I hope you are "really" interested in the Hebrew text regarding the High Priestly work of Christ when you ask how it is that Christ would engage in something that HE DEFINED in scripture --

Clearly Heb 5 shows us that the high priestly work of Christ is specific to His being the source of eternal salvation. Finding eternal salvation
from some other source after Christ's work as high priest ends - is not endorsed by Hebrews 5.

Here we find that the fact of the continuing high priestly work of Christ - His "intercession" is what guarantees the continued process of saving those who are choosing
to "draw near" to God through Him. This is the hope of the lost sinner. And it is clear from the text that His work is specific to intercession for the sins of the people.

Christ's work is again connected with the subject of sacrifices for sins - for the purpose of obtaining forgiveness as we see in vs 3 above.

The covenant that Christ is mediating - has everything to do with obtaining forgiveness of sins according to Hebrews 8 vs 12.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

The way into the holy place - had not been available before the cross. The High Priestly work of of Christ in relationship to His blood and having it applied
to the record of sins and - then blotting out those sins from the books - all that work, was not taking place until the ministry in the heavenly sanctuary
started. Which was not in the pre-cross age.

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Here we see that it is not until Christ begins his role as priest - that He enters the heavenly sanctuary with His blood - for the purpose of dealing with sins, redemption
and salvation within the context of the heavenly sanctuary.

We see again that obtaining eternal life - the plan of salvation - is tied up with the working/ministry/function of Christ in the Heavenly sanctuary.

It is unmistakable - the focus of the ministry in the sanctuary remains - the application of the blood for the purpose of forgiveness, in this public
full-disclosure process being worked out in the heavenly sanctuary.

This gets us back to 1John 2:1 where "we have an advocate with the Father" in the matter of sins committed even after being saved, and Hebrews 8 continues that
model showing us that in His High Priestly role - Christ is "appearing in the presence of God for us" based on the blood of the covenant - the sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

[ June 12, 2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Heb 7 dealt explicitly and exclusively with the CHANGE in the Law regarding the PRIESTHOOD not regarding our WORSHIP of God (have no other God's before the ONE true God) OR our duty to man (No murder, no Coveting). It deals with the law of geneology of the priest SHOWING that Christ had NO Aaronic Geneology and was a Priest IN HEAVEN and the LAW regarding ANIMAL sacrifice and HUMAN priests is replaced by the highpriestly work of Christ and Christ's blood. NO ref to the 10 commandments.

Here the writer of Hebrews points out that the laws regarding sacrifices - officiated by earthly priests - AND the requirements for BEING a priest -- change as the priesthood changes.

NOW the sacrifice is the one in heaven - "Christ's blood" -- and is officiated by our High Priest - Christ. This is NOT a discussion of the 10 commandments and whether we really need to worry about taking God's name in vain.

NOT ONE sentence in Hebrews can be found contrasting the 10 commandments of God with some imaginary DUPLICATE set in the NT short one commandment - that of CHRIST the Creator's Holy Day. RATHER this is a contrast between SYSTEMS OF PRIESTHOOD.

Notice that the text explicitly references the LAW OF PHYSICAL requirement - explicitly - the issue of LINEAGE - Judah vs Levi. Impossible to miss with even the slightest smattering of exegesis - but sometimes buried in eisegesis if our pre-bias will not allow us to see the plain teaching in the text.

Some do try to eisegete the 10 commandments into the text of Hebrews 7 - but we see clearly that instead of speaking of a supposed change in our obligation to worship the One True God - or a change in our obligation to parents or to avoid stealing etc - Heb 7 is CLEARLY speaking of the sacrificial system and priesthood that administers those sacrifices.

Observe carefully - not one vs of Hebrews conrasts "the 10 commandments and Jesus Christ".

Hebrews 7 - CONTRASTING the TWO priesthood systems –

The contrast here is based in the qualifications for the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ.
A - humans die - but Christ does not.
B - Humans do not continue to serve the people as priests after their death so there must be MANY-- existed in greater numbers because they were
prevented by death from continuing,
C. Chosen NOT on the basis of Biblical law - but on the basis of "an indestructible Life" Vs 16
D. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God,
he remains a priest perpetually.
E. Christ is prepared to TAKE that Melchizedek priesthood only AFTER death - AFTER making his sacrifice.
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law

The immortal requirement for the Melchizedek priesthood is met by Christ - alone, so the humans were "greater in number" in their priesthood system.

Heb 7:

25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Here we see the FUNCTION of this new priesthood - so unique to Christ.
HE SAVES those who DRAW NEAR to God THROUGH HIM. (vs 25)
He ALWAYS LIVES to make INTERCESSION for them (vs 25)
He is the GUARANTEE of A BETTER COVENANT. (vs 22)


26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Again - His qualifications as CONTRASTED to the human qualifications under a human - earthly Aaronic system.

- Holy, Innocent, Undefiled, separated from SINNERs, EXALTED above the heavens.


27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

The CONTRAST again is between the LAW that ordained HUMAN priests - the sons of Aaron -
Humans were "weak, sinnders" who must offer sacrifices FOR THEIR OWN SINS as WELL as that of the people.

To prove that Christ was not establishing a parallel OR a rival priesthood system ON EARTH - after the cross, the writer of Hebrews makes this astounding statement

Heb 8:
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

This is all so clear and IN THE TEXT - so that if we come to the chapter without and "agenda" we see the issue of priesthood and sacrifices and laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice is offerred are CLEARLY the explicit and obvious topic of the chapter.

But if we "snippet text" and cut a few sentences out of the context of the chapter - we can possibly support any pre-bias.

 

Right beside you, because your guilt remains your guilt too! No one can take your guilt for the deeds that you have done away from you. You did the deeds, guilty for doing so remains yours forever! The only way you can avoid guilt is to avoid doing the deed!

That is where Atonement comes in! Because ALL are guilty of sinning, and retain that guilt forever. Jesus atoned for sin by removing the penalty that sin brings which is death. Atonement does not remove the guilt, it removes the death!

Your misconceptions of atonement have blinded you to the truth!

 

Excuse me, but aren't you the one that keeps demanding that death comes from sin? You know, "the wages of sin is death". Where does scripture tell us the wage for guilt is death?

Now you say that death comes from guilt. Sin is what causes guilt. It is the guilty person who is put to death!

Oh what a tangled web you weave!

Don't you know that guilt is the result of sin, and not the sin itself?

Don't you know that not all guilt is the result of sin, but can instead be a complement as in:

The declaration "so you're the one who brought all this good to the community".

The response: Yep, guilty as charged!

Does the latter example of guilt cause death?

You simply do not understand the meaning of the words you are using!

 

Johnp,
An accusation against a person for doing good, remains an accusation. The one who is accused acknowledging the accusation for having done good, is guilty of having done good!

The question: Is this kind of guilt the kind that brings death as it has been stated that guilt does?

If yes, then no one better do anything good and admit to it lest you die!

My point is that guilt did not bring death, sin brought death. Jesus death atoned for ALL sin, yet when one does sin, one remains guilty of having sinned! That guilt does not get removed, nor does it get transferred.

The consequence of sin did Get transferred FROM man TO God the son. Man no longer faces death by sinning! So with death from sin removed from man, why do men get cast into the lake of fire? Because they lack faith In God the Son. Man's SALVATION is through FAITH ALONE!

 

That is the Greek pagan notion of "proptiation".

If you are using the Hebrew scripture idea of "Atoning Sacrifice" or substitutionary atonement where it is the DEITY HIMSELF that is paying the debt owed - that is an entirely different model.

In all cases mankind has sinned. But in some cases it is "an individual" confessing and getting "individual forgiveness" based on God's viewing HIS OWN sacrifice for the sins of man.

In the case of the OT Animals - they were to remind man that God's OWN LAMB - God the SON was to be our payment for sin. As God saw that reminder of Christ (Messiah) He said He would forgive in view of the Messiah.

Saved By Grace through faith IN the substitutionary death of the Messiah to come. Forgiven on that SAME basis.

Again - you use the greek PAGAN deity model instead of the HEBREW Scripture authored by the God who First - SO LOVED that He gave that entire Gospel system pointing to the MEssiah!

Instead of "angry God" it is "God who IS LOVE" that is being approached.

If Christ died only for the children of Jacob - we are all toast! If He died ONLY for HIS CHOSEN nation - Israel - we are toast!

If the system is nothing more than the greek pagan appeasement of an angry deity - we are toast!

Israel even TODAY sees in the DAy of Atonement a sacrifice and judgment that covers THE ENTIRE WORLD!

This is the model that God "who so LOVED The WORLD" gives us.

The pagan system "their gods so HATE that they are ANGRY and must be appeased".

IN the Hebrew Scriptures "God so LOVES that HE GIVES" and that FIRST cause - first act of God is why God the Son was "Sent to BE the savior OF THE WORLD" 1 John 4:10.

How much "better" when we go by the Bible eh?

The Day of Atonement was not to deal with NEW SINS committed on the Day of Atonement - but was to deal with ALREADY processed sins - that had ALREADY come into the temple throughout the year in the form of sin offerings, burnt offerings, guilt offerings...

Your god seems to be perpetually angry John!

AS for stepping out from under the umbrella - read Matt 18 - the last part of the chapter where Christ tells the story of what happens when you walk out from under the umbrella.

(No sense in making stuff up when we can just read the Bible and believe it).

In Christ,

Bob

 

It has to do with that servant FULLY FORGIVEN! (you know -- umbrella!!) and then forgiveness REVOKED!! (you know - stepping out from under the umbrella!).

Then Christ said to HIS followers "SO shall My Father do to EACH OF YOU IF you do not..."

Christians are "supposed" to listen to Christ last time I checked!

Just the "obvious".

I was thinking that you understood that through the Gospel and the blood of Christ "Alone" we have "forgiveness of sins".

Maybe I was going too fast.

I will try to keep that in mind.

In the mean time - show me the confusing part that leads you to think you are to reject the words of Christ in Matt 18.

In Christ,

Bob

 

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Lev 16:10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.
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Sorry charlie! You missed it "Again".

The "Atonement process" includes MORE than forgiveness (did I say that already??)

The Atonement PROCESS includes the high priestly work of Christ that is done AFTER the ascension and BEFORE the 2nd coming (did I say that already??)

The Atonement PROCESS includes the work done in Daniel 7 PRIOR to the 2nd coming where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" for (as the Jews STILL note today ) it involves judgement of the ENTIRE World - a final disposition of sin. (Did I say that already?)

The Atonement PROCESS includes the court's determination of the ADDED guilt of the wicked including Satan and his angels. The wicked who (as in MAtt 7 CLAIMED the blood of Christ but are wolves in sheeps clothing). The blood of Christ claimed for them - does NOTHING for them. Their sin comes back to them to be paid BY them. Satan is also charged with the "Added sin" of tempting/tormenting those of ANOTHER kingdom (Christ's Kingdom) since the saints are now vindicated as IN Christ's kingdom via that court room.

(Did I say that already).

So this Goat - NOT slain, NOT a sin offering, NOT a substitionary sacrifice -- is part of the Atonement PROCESS where the wicked are judged and their OWN sins paid for by THEMSELVES!

There is your goat sir. Enjoy!

IN Christ,

Bob