The Atonement.

There is no process for the recipient of atonement!

Either sin is atoned or it is not atoned, there are no interim or preparatory steps and there are no follow-on steps to atonement.

All have sinned...All sin is atoned! Up to Jesus all mankind looked forward to the atonement. After Jesus, all mankind looks back on the atonement! For us living after Jesus, atonement is a competed work of God that makes it possible for man to be saved through faith! That includes those before Jesus, where FAITH was seen as Righteousness, and for ALL of us after Jesus whose FAITH is likewise seen by God as righteousness.

There is no process involving us except the process of us Hearing God's word and believing. The believing part is a process because the more we hear of God's word, the more of satan's lies are displaced in us by God's truth, and that is a growth process called sanctification. We are sanctified (set apart) by our FAITH in God! We are Justified by God the Son's Atonement for sin and His acceptance of our faith in Him! If we acknowledge Jesus before mankind, He acknowledges us (justifies us) before the FATHER!

 

John 10:14-15 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,

He REDEEMED HIS SHEEP Wes.

We were bought... But He didn't "buy" everybody!

Believing is a command from God. If you do not obey it, you SIN. NOT believing is a SIN !! If Jesus bought ALL of our SINS then you have a BIG problem. Even the Arminians acknowlege this and believe that Jesus only SUFFERED for our sin but did not ATONE for it. If you believe He died to atone for ALL sin, then He died for unbelief also, in which EVERYBODY will be going to heaven OR He perfectly and completely died for HIS sheep in order that we will have ALL our sins wiped away ... even unbelief. Since all do not believe, this is evidence that He didn't atone for everybody.

 

Jesus did not "buy our sin", He paid the penalty in our stead! You received absolutely nothing in return for your sin, so there was no "PURCHASE TRANSACTION". As for suffering vs atoning? The Christ's SUFFERING was the MEANS of ATONING for SIN! The purpose for Jesus dying in the first place is to atone for SIN. Not your sin, not my sin, but SIN! Sin is what prevented man from having everlasting life because SIN imposed the penalty of DEATH! Not even Abraham would have everlasting life if Jesus had not died to atone for sin! Get the idea out of your head that Jesus atoned for your individual sins so that you are saved by it! That ain't BIBLE!

You are still equating atonement for sin with SALVATION, they are not the same! NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE are they the same! The scriptures do not declare that Atonement saves....Unless of course, you are strongly desirous of NEGATING "For by Grace are ye saved...", your old standby would have to be changed to "for by atonement ye are saved". ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE! But you can't be saved without it, any more than you can be saved without grace, and you absolutely cannot be saved without FAITH, the Bible says so!

He did not Die to wipe away our sin.....YOU STILL SIN!...me too! So what you believe is a lie! He died to remove the penalty of our sin so that through our faith in Jesus we no longer face death for our sin, but can have everlasting life (Salvation). Don't be myopic!

There you go, you've gone and done it. Now you equate atonement with belief in God! How do you make that connection? Whether or not man believes, GOD the SON ATONED FOR SIN! Believing in HIM is the only way you get saved! So KNOCK-OFF the false beliefs already!

 

Do you know what redeemed menas Wes? And I did buy something with my sin... DEATH !

You would be wise to buy some theology books on this subject. Your just blowing alot of hot air.

 

The wage paid to you for sin IS DEATH! You don't buy death!

You would be wise to THINK IT THROUGH!

 

That's salvation.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]How can you equate atonement for sin with Salvation? Salvation is the Gift of God to those who have faith! Atonement is the removal of the death penalty from all mankind so that those who do have faith can have everlasting life.

 

IN Hebrews we are told that Christ is doing a salvific work in His Role as High Priest and that it is for "individuals".

Christ is doing real ministry in the real heavenly sanctuary – of which the earthly was merely a type – a shadow.

Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.

Instead of saying that the source of salvation is limited to the Cross - we find that it is extended to the work of Christ FOR us in heaven - and that it is individual.

In Christ,

Bob

 

How dare you quote John Owens in a debate about Atonement! ha ha ha...

Little joke between John P. and me... I'm sure the ones espousing doctrines spewed on this thread against JP never read him or they wouldn't be thinking the way they do...

 

John P --

I think I already got your "other goat"

Sorry charlie! You missed it "Again".

The "Atonement process" includes MORE than forgiveness (did I say that already??)

The Atonement PROCESS includes the high priestly work of Christ that is done AFTER the ascension and BEFORE the 2nd coming (did I say that already??)

The Atonement PROCESS includes the work done in Daniel 7 PRIOR to the 2nd coming where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" for (as the Jews STILL note today ) it involves judgement of the ENTIRE World - a final disposition of sin. (Did I say that already?)

The Atonement PROCESS includes the court's determination of the ADDED guilt of the wicked including Satan and his angels. The wicked who (as in MAtt 7 CLAIMED the blood of Christ but are wolves in sheeps clothing). The blood of Christ claimed for them - does NOTHING for them. Their sin comes back to them to be paid BY them. Satan is also charged with the "Added sin" of tempting/tormenting those of ANOTHER kingdom (Christ's Kingdom) since the saints are now vindicated as IN Christ's kingdom via that court room.

(Did I say that already).

So this Goat - NOT slain, NOT a sin offering, NOT a substitionary sacrifice -- is part of the Atonement PROCESS where the wicked are judged and their OWN sins paid for by THEMSELVES!

There is your goat sir. Enjoy!

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

quote:
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Instead of saying that the source of salvation is limited to the Cross - we find that it is extended to the work of Christ FOR us in heaven - and that it is individual.
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Well at least you got one thing right.

"Bonus" as in "SALVATION" according to the text of scripture -- the details of which you seem to gloss over.

Read it and believe it. The the text does not say "he BECAME the source of some added bonus when he became our High Priest".

But that was a nice try.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Don't take it personal, He did that for every human who ever lived, is living and will live. You have nothing from God that he did not give to all mankind! You ain't special 'til you come to faith in God, then you become sanctified (set apart from those who don't believe) and Sanctified (set apart to the holiness that God expects of his created man)...work on it!

 

Did you read it??

The first time??

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1462/8.html#000119

What about "the second time"??

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1462/9.html#000131


Are you ready to ask a question OR to point to any of the points and make a counter argument???

Substance?

Detail?

Cogent reply?

Hello!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am thinking it pretty much nails the scapegoat right on its pointy little head.

Oh - then we agree??!!! The scapegoat is not a sin offering!!

Wonderful. Finally a point on the "obvious" that can be agreed to!

I will take it!!

The Calvinist "shell game"?? I actually find it counter productive for Calvinism. But it is fun to debunk!

True enough - scapegoat "not slain"!!

Read Lev 16 sometime and you will see.

Again - wonderful that you seem ready to admit that!

Fine - what part "do you not get"??

Ahhh- back to the scapegoat "again".??

The goat not slain - the goat that is not the sin offering.

The sins of the entire year were already processed into the sanctuary. Moses made it clear to Aaron that the priests were to transfer the sins of the people TO the sanctuary all during the year.

The END of year service was a final disposition of those sins. SOME of the sins are satisfied in the blood of the Messiah (Lord's Goat -- SIN OFFERING - SUBSTIUTIONARY atoning sacrifice) and some are simply the "MANY" of Matt 7 in the camp who "SAY LORD LORD" but are in fact still "The bad tree" that Christ speaks of.

Those who are merely "saying" Lord Lord "Will not enter the kingdom of Heaven" according to Christ. Christ's blood is not used to pay their debt!

The disposition of THEIR sins is in the form of their having to pay the debt owed - themselves. We see the sins coming OUT OF THE SANCTUARY and going TO THEM. They do not die a substiutionary death NOR are they a "sin offering".

The High Priest COMES OUT of the sanctuary and "
lays "both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites--all their sins--and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert. Lev 16:21-22.

SO BOTH the cases of the SAVED (FEW of MATT 7) and the cases of the lost (MANY of Matt 7) are finally resovled. Debt paid! Atonement complete!

As Christ points out in Matt 18 - "SO shall My heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not forgive your neighbor from your heart".

In Christ,

Bob