The basis of God's predestination

[Eladar]

By the logic being thrown around here, nobody is going to be saved. No one is perfect, not one. Nobody is saved, not even us. We know about Jesus Christ and have the Bible, but not even with the word of God is anyone perfect. There was only one who was perfect and that was Jesus Christ. The rest of us are imperfect and therefore unrighteous and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

If this is not what you believe, then why is it any different for those who imperfectly sought after God without the law, God's written revelation to man? Why do you limit God's calling to those who have been exposed to the word of God?

Paul says that there are those who do God's will without the law. This is without question. The question is, why is their imperfect attempt to do God's will inferior to anyone else's imperfect attempt to do God's will?

We are all saved by the sacrafice of Jesus Christ our Lord. This is why Paul said no one is perfect, not one. Everyone needs the blood of Jesus Christ in order to be righteous. Outside of Jesus Christ there is no salvation. Jesus says that those who do the will of God will be found righteous.

Since nobody does this perfectly, this means that everyone who does God's will imperfectly will be saved.

God can call anyone to follow Him. If God calls someone to do His will, can anything prevent Him from carrying out His will? Does God need the written word to convince His elect to hear His voice and do His will? Through God all things are possible!

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
[QB]By the logic being thrown around here, nobody is going to be saved. No one is perfect, not one. Nobody is saved, not even us. We know about Jesus Christ and have the Bible, but not even with the word of God is anyone perfect. There was only one who was perfect and that was Jesus Christ. The rest of us are imperfect and therefore unrighteous and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have correctly articulated the doctrine of total inability to save oneself.

Thanks be to God, he in his mercy saves the saints by election!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If this is not what you believe, then why is it any different for those who imperfectly sought after God without the law, God's written revelation to man? Why do you limit God's calling to those who have been exposed to the word of God? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because God does.

Romans 10:9-17 (ESV)
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. [11] For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." [12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
[14] But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" [17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Paul says that there are those who do God's will without the law. This is without question. The question is, why is their imperfect attempt to do God's will inferior to anyone else's imperfect attempt to do God's will? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul says nothing of the kind. What does Romans 2 say:

Romans 2:12-16 (ESV)
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. [14] For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

ALL have sinned, with or without the law, adn will perish for that sin.The actions that Gentiles do in accordance with the law, is not do to law-keeping, but rather that the law of God is written on their hearts, and they know what is right and wrong. That they occassionally do right only further condemns them for doing wrong!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We are all saved by the sacrafice of Jesus Christ our Lord. This is why Paul said no one is perfect, not one. Everyone needs the blood of Jesus Christ in order to be righteous. Outside of Jesus Christ there is no salvation. Jesus says that those who do the will of God will be found righteous. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one saved is righteous, but is rather considered righteous. We receive the imputation (credit) of Christ's righteousness in our acount. We do not become righteous; that is Rome's assertion.

And who "does" the will of God, and what is it? Salvation by works? No.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Justification is by faith; and faith is a gift, and work, of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Since nobody does this perfectly, this means that everyone who does God's will imperfectly will be saved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is completely unbiblical and at odds with what you said above.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God can call anyone to follow Him. If God calls someone to do His will, can anything prevent Him from carrying out His will? Does God need the written word to convince His elect to hear His voice and do His will? Through God all things are possible!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does God need to have the elect hear and be saved? No. But that is how he has chosen to do it, for His glory and our participation in the plan of redemption. Scripture gives us the modus operandi of God, and we dare not veer from believing it.

[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> No one saved is righteous, but is rather considered righteous. We receive the imputation (credit) of Christ's righteousness in our acount. We do not become righteous; that is Rome's assertion.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe you are being nit picky. Let's just say saved. If we are considered righteous or are righteous the net affect is the same, salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And who "does" the will of God, and what is it? Salvation by works? No. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Quit putting words in my mouth. Works mean nothing, other than to reveal the heart. It is the state of the heart that saves. Jesus says this, if you would like I'll post a list of scripture that says it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Since nobody does this perfectly, this means that everyone who does God's will imperfectly will be saved.

This is completely unbiblical and at odds with what you said above.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So are you trying to say that any Christian does the perfect will of God? Show me one, just one! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does God need to have the elect hear and be saved? No. But that is how he has chosen to do it, for His glory and our participation in the plan of redemption. Scripture gives us the modus operandi of God, and we dare not veer from believing it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Bible tells us how to live. The Bible tells us how to judge fruits to determine if someone who calls himself a brother truely is a brother. The Bible tells us to judge those who claim to be brothers. The Bible does not tell us how God is going to judge those who don't claim to be Christians. The Bible specifically tells us not to judge those outside the church. God judges those outside the Church! All we are instructed to do is God's will. God did not give us the Bible so that we can pass judgement of salvation on others. God did not give us the Bible so that we can know how he works. God gave us the Bible so that we can know how we need to live our lives.

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why do you limit God's calling to those who have been exposed to the word of God?

Because God does. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, because on the first page of this thread, Arminianism was being accused of giving "greater opportunity" to those lucky to live in evangelical societies. This is basically the same thing, only further excluding many within the evangelical societies by leaving them no opportunity by not being lucky enough to fit within "God's good pleasure".

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>************
No one saved is righteous, but is rather considered righteous. We receive the imputation (credit) of Christ's righteousness in our acount. We do not become righteous; that is Rome's assertion.
**************

I believe you are being nit picky. Let's just say saved. If we are considered righteous or are righteous the net affect is the same, salvation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is nothing nitpicky about this! It is the heart of reformational protestantism! It is what infuriated Rome against Luther and the reformers. To misunderstand this is to misunderstand your faith. Humdreds died at the hands of Rome on this issue alone. Rome called imputed righteousness a legal fiction, since they equate justification with sanctification, and is why no one can know that they are saved before death.

See
Lee Irons on The Righteousness of God

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eric B:

Funny, because on the first page of this thread, Arminianism was being accused of giving "greater opportunity" to those lucky to live in evangelical societies. This is basically the same thing, only further excluding many within the evangelical societies by leaving them no opportunity by not being lucky enough to fit within "God's good pleasure".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a nonargument and abusus non tollit usum (misuse does not nullify proper use).

Arminianism argues that all must receive an opportunity to hear and believe, in order for the offer of salvation to be "fair"; the Bible says that all who are elect will hear and believe, in order that God will receive praise and glory.

The two are diametrically opposed positions.

 

[trueliberty]

Chris, you seem to deny any valid role whatsoever for general revelation. As I've said, it doesn't save one in and of itself. It is through the message of the Word of God that salvation comes. But in your quote of Romans 10 you forgot verse 18:

"But I say, Have they not heard? YES VERILY, Their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world"
Who is the "they" in this verse? It's the ones in verse 16 that have NOT ALL obeyed the gospel. Isaiah's desperate plea for someone to believe the report shows many don't believe. But this same passage shows the sound, witness, testimony, message of God is given to all

All "hear" the message (witness given), but only those who believe the message "hear" or fully understand because only those who have the Holy Spirit can spiritually discern (1 Corinthians 2:14). In this way, they that are of the truth HEAR the voice of the Saviour and those that understand in this way live (John 5:25)

But you can't deny that God never leaves himself without a witness--read Acts 14:17 (or without the triple negatives, God always leaves a witness)

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


There is nothing nitpicky about this! It is the heart of reformational protestantism! It is what infuriated Rome against Luther and the reformers. To misunderstand this is to misunderstand your faith. Humdreds died at the hands of Rome on this issue alone. Rome called imputed righteousness a legal fiction, since they equate justification with sanctification, and is why no one can know that they are saved before death.

See
Lee Irons on The Righteousness of God <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps this kind of stuff is what Paul warned against when he told us not to devour each other over debatable matters.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Chris,

Scripture says that our faith in Christ is imputed--accounted, reckoned--as righteousness.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trueliberty:
Chris, you seem to deny any valid role whatsoever for general revelation. As I've said, it doesn't save one in and of itself. It is through the message of the Word of God that salvation comes. But in your quote of Romans 10 you forgot verse 18:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you. I didn't leave v 18 intentionally; one must just pick a point to stop at

 

[trueliberty]

But the point is all WILL have an opportunity to hear and believe. The universal presentation of general revelation by God shows this truth--it represents the beginning of universal opportunity for all. Romans 1:20 outlines things clearly seen by all if they choose to accept this. The verse concludes with those who reject this and tells us they are "without excuse". Being without excuse necessitates an opportunity rejected and a responsibility to accept revelation.

With opportunity and responsibility must come ability. Now, because of man's depravity it surely is a supernatural God-given ability given to all.It's to all because opportunity and responsibility is given to all! Consequently he commands all to repent (Acts 17:30), showing that all must be able to with God's supernatural help. All this shows the righteous-just-fair etc judgment of God (Acts 17:31) by Jesus and by his gospel (Romans 2:2,16)

That's why it shows only part of the message to stop at verse 17 of Romans 10 which I'll grant you most do.

 

[JAMES2]

Thank God, the GROUND AND BASIS of God's predestination is His GOOD PLEASURE AND WILL. He didn't look into the future and see that we would "choose" Him, because without his free gift of grace, His regenerating us, without His free gift of faith, we would not have chose Him. It is all of grace and absolutely NOTHING of man. Praise God!!!!!
James2

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
Thank God, the GROUND AND BASIS of God's predestination is His GOOD PLEASURE AND WILL. He didn't look into the future and see that we would "choose" Him, because without his free gift of grace, His regenerating us, without His free gift of faith, we would not have chose Him. It is all of grace and absolutely NOTHING of man. Praise God!!!!!
James2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I still don't see why this should be a point of division. Unless of course you have some need to control what others believe. The Bible doesn't list the lacking of this understanding as a result of the flesh.

I believe that over the years, the argument over this aspect of Christianity has done more harm than good. It has caused brothers in Christ to devour each other.

***By the way, there are some faulty implications about what you just said, but that is another thread.***

 

[JAMES2]

Tuor:
---------------------------------------------
I still don't see why this should be a point of division. Unless of course you have some need to control what others believe. The Bible doesn't list the lacking of this understanding as a result of the flesh.
I believe that over the years, the argument over this aspect of Christianity has done more harm than good. It has caused brothers in Christ to devour each other.

***By the way, there are some faulty implications about what you just said, but that is another thread.***
---------------------------------------------
I guess this issue causes division because it is absolutely crucial to the right understanding of salvation. It is right here that the church divides between the gospel and heresy.
Either salvation is God's sovereign grace and will or it is not. If it is not, and man adds ..... ANYTHING to it, it is not totally from God. If EVERYONE has a equal opportunity to "choose" God but some do and some don't, what is the difference? Why do some say yes and others no? Do the ones that say yes do so because they are better, because they have contributed to their own salvation, and if so can they boast. Wow, look at me!!! We both had an equal chance to choose God and you didn't and I did. Ha, Ha, Ha, aren't I something, you pagan you.

Don't you see that both sides of this can't be right. Either salvation is all of God or it isn't. Those saying they cooperate with God are deluded. They are trying to save themselves, which is impossible.

Actually I'm not the one who has a need to control what one thinks. I have NOTHING to do with it. I can't co-operate with God, help God, doing works, beg God, plead with God, obligate God, make God choose me, thwart God or anything else. Those of us who say that salvation is completely and totally out of our hands, and completely and totally in the hands of God have GIVEN UP ALL CONTROL over the situation. Only those that think they have something to do with their own salvation would even think it possible to CONTROL how another one thinks. I leave that up to the people who are trying to save themselves to do. God is in CONTROL and that is the end of it.

Ok, I'm always willing to learn. Point out my "faulty implications."

I have learned, through years of experience, that it is almost impossible for man to give up CONTROL of his own salvation, even if that control is to God. To me it is further evidence of the truth of Christianity. Christianity is the ONLY religion in the history of the world that takes a person's salvation TOTALLY out of the individuals hands. ALL other pagan religions require you to DO works, walk the "spiritual path," face east 7 times a day, make a journey to a shrine, throw dirt over your right shoulder, etc. ONLY Christianity humbles man and says, sorry people, you depraved, lost people can't do A THING to earn your salvation. Now, that is humbling and awesome and truly wonderful, and I thank God for it. If ANY of us had to CHOOSE God, make a DECISION for God, say a sinner's prayer and take the preacher's hand, if we had to do ANYTHING without being regenerated by the free gift of grace, we would ALL BE LOST.

Do you actually think that Jesus died on the cross and atoned for the sins of people that are going to be in hell? That is obscene, it is heresy, it is God-dishonoring and it is flat out WRONG.
I do not believe in a disappointed saviour, a defeated Holy Spirit. EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITHOUT EXCEPTION THAT JESES DIED TO REDEEM, IS REDEEMED. I believe in an atonement that atones, a redeemer that redeems, a savior that saves. I DO NOT believe in a Sovereign God of the universe that can be thwarted in His plans by the "choice" of a fallen, depraved, God-hating, rebellious, utterly spiritually dead sinner. Do you?

Actually the Bible DOES "list the lack of this understanding as the result of the flesh." The flesh, of course, being the natural man, the unregenerated man, the God-hating, rebellious man, the depraved man. As 1 cor 2:14 says (doesn't ANYONE look these scriptures up) the things of God (like salvation, justification, grace, faith, etc) CANNOT be understood by the fleshly man. They MUST BE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. It doesn't get any more basic than that.

This issue will continue to divide the Church because it is not a fringe issue like do we stand or sit while singing. This IS THE ISSUE. Salvation is God-centered or man-centered. It can't be both.

To show how far gone the modern church is just stop and think about the last time you heard a really good explanation of the great doctrine of Justification by Faith preached. Usually you hear about the latest 12-step program, or I'm ok, you're ok, be a Christian and give and you will get -- you know, the corrupt posperity message. Or even worse, you hear about how important your self-esteem is, or how great the lastest music program is, or how great our youth group is, and on and on. I hear people babble about how they ONLY go by the bible, and heck with the ancient CREEDS. You know, those CREEDS hammered out by brillant people to combat all the heresy that was trying to ruin the church.

I do feel rather strongly about this issue because the church stands or falls on it. This is one issue that a person better get right. And the shame is that MOST DON'T get it right. I didn't get it right. I fought it. But, praise God, He regenerated me, opened my mind, and enlightened me in no uncertain terms so that I could now "see" the truth of SOVEREIGN ELECTION, and, believe me, things have not been the same since. Nor have they been so wonderful sense. Nor have I ever understood so clearly that the "TRUTH SETS YOU FREE." I mean REALLY free. God is so good and the gospel so precious ONLY God could have done this.

Let the pagans and all the others work their way to salvation and cooperate with God, and "make a decision for Christ," and put a bumper sticker on your car that says "I Found it," or go on thinking that you have something to do with your own salvation. I can't and don't want to control what you think. I only want to give unending praise to God because HE IS IN CONTROL OF WHAT I THINK. (oh no, you are giving up "free" will). I sure am. Stop and think about it. Before a person is regenerated, he hates God and the things of God. Then, like Paul, he is regenerated and .... wow... I LOVE God and the things of God. Now, what happened? Who caused it to happen? Well, I know and the gospel is trying to tell you.
Merry Christmas to everyone.
James2

 

[S. Baptist]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
Thank God, the GROUND AND BASIS of God's predestination is His GOOD PLEASURE AND WILL. He didn't look into the future and see that we would "choose" Him, because without his free gift of grace, His regenerating us, without His free gift of faith, we would not have chose Him. It is all of grace and absolutely NOTHING of man. Praise God!!!!!
James2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Why does God let Israel "CHOSE" which God they want to serve, and accepting or rejecting Jesus, and not us????

 

[JAMES2]

You will have to ask God why he chose Israel and left ALL THE OTHER NATIONS on their own. Sorry, "chose", "choose", etc. Sometimes I should do a little better job of proofreading. I'm sure you understand.
James2

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
Why does God let Israel "CHOSE" which God they want to serve, and accepting or rejecting Jesus, and not us????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, you misrepresent what the Scriptures say, and what Calvinists believe. Every man is called (commanded) to make a decision as to who they will believe. Every man is responsible for his choices.

John 3:36 (ESV)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

You post Scriptures as if the Calvinist did not believe and deal with every verse of Scripture. In fact, it is the free-willist who selectively proof-texts to defend their position.

Every man is commanded to believe. Every man is unable and unwilling to respond, until God works grace in that man's heart enabling him to beleive.

Romans 8:7-8 (ESV)
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [8] Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

John 6:63-65 (ESV)
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [64] But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) [65] And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If EVERYONE has a equal opportunity to "choose" God but some do and some don't, what is the difference? Why do some say yes and others no? Do the ones that say yes do so because they are better, because they have contributed to their own salvation, and if so can they boast. Wow, look at me!!! We both had an equal chance to choose God and you didn't and I did. Ha, Ha, Ha, aren't I something, you pagan you.
Don't you see that both sides of this can't be right. Either salvation is all of God or it isn't. Those saying they cooperate with God are deluded. They are trying to save themselves, which is impossible. I can't co-operate with God, help God, doing works, beg God, plead with God, obligate God, make God choose me, thwart God or anything else.
I have learned, through years of experience, that it is almost impossible for man to give up CONTROL of his own salvation, even if that control is to God.
Let the pagans and all the others work their way to salvation and cooperate with God, and "make a decision for Christ," and put a bumper sticker on your car that says "I Found it," or go on thinking that you have something to do with your own salvation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see now one of the biggest misunderstandings of the Calvinists regarding Free will is the assumption that those who belive in it and reject Calvinism do so because they have some wish to think they earned their way into Heaven, or "controlled their destiny" in order to praise themselves. I know of none who think that way, and I certainly don't. It is just a straw man conceived for this argument. The reason we oppose Calvinism is the corollary that God creates people He gives no opportunity to receive salvation. Calvinists cite Romans 9, but that passage is talking about temporal judgement of Israel, not the eternal destruction of individuals, and it speaks in terms of neutral "clay vessels" not morally depraved ("bad") people receiving what they deserved.
So there is a parodox that is a mystery that is beyond our comprehension. God id sovereign, but He allows evil and people's choices.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ONLY Christianity humbles man and says, sorry people, you depraved, lost people can't do A THING to earn your salvation. Now, that is humbling and awesome and truly wonderful, and I thank God for it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course-- that God "chose" you while skipping over others. Who wouldn't thank God for that. But what if you were one of those God passed over. You might say such people don't even care (but this is not true, as many have died struggling with this question), but once in Hell then what would you think?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If ANY of us had to CHOOSE God, make a DECISION for God, say a sinner's prayer and take the preacher's hand, if we had to do ANYTHING without being regenerated by the free gift of grace, we would ALL BE LOST.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where do the scriptures say this? There are plenty of scriptures that tell people to choose, but then this is meaningless as God actually did it for them. Why would it be phrased as the people making a choice then?
Christ Temple says:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Every man is called (commanded) to make a decision as to who they will believe. Every man is responsible for his choices.
Every man is commanded to believe. Every man is unable and unwilling to respond, until God works grace in that man's heart enabling him to believe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But why would He command them to choose then, knowing they can't? Because they are just "vessels of wrath" that He needs a reason to charge with sin, as some supralapsarians will even admit?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you actually think that Jesus died on the cross and atoned for the sins of people that are going to be in hell? That is obscene, it is heresy, it is God-dishonoring and it is flat out WRONG.
I do not believe in a disappointed saviour, a defeated Holy Spirit. EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITHOUT EXCEPTION THAT JESES DIED TO REDEEM, IS REDEEMED. I believe in an atonement that atones, a redeemer that redeems, a savior that saves. I DO NOT believe in a Sovereign God of the universe that can be thwarted in His plans by the "choice" of a fallen, depraved, God-hating, rebellious, utterly spiritually dead sinner. Do you?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only Calvinists claim this. It's like "either God saves and atones the way we says He should (with US chosen OVER others) or he does not save at all." It HE in His sovereign wll decided to give people a choice, don't you see that your position is what actually degrades that sovereignty.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Salvation is God-centered or man-centered. It can't be both. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Once again, if God set it up with Free will, it is God centered. (Man certainly didn't set it up that way. Only if you're biased toward Calvinism will one say "free will is man CENTERED". That is just an arbitrary caracterization of a position one does not believe in.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I hear people babble about how they ONLY go by the bible, and heck with the ancient CREEDS. You know, those CREEDS hammered out by brillant people to combat all the heresy that was trying to ruin the church. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But creeds can be mixed with error as well. (especially if Calvinism happened to be wrong). Then we interpret the Bible by them, instead of by other God-breathed scrptures. (So of course our position will come out "proven") This is adding to scripture thud denying its sufficiency.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To show how far gone the modern church is just stop and think about the last time you heard a really good explanation of the great doctrine of Justification by Faith preached. Usually you hear about the latest 12-step program, or I'm ok, you're ok, be a Christian and give and you will get -- you know, the corrupt posperity message. Or even worse, you hear about how important your self-esteem is, or how great the lastest music program is, or how great our youth group is, and on and on. I do feel rather strongly about this issue because the church stands or falls on it. This is one issue that a person better get right. And the shame is that MOST DON'T get it right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are alot of problems in the church, both Calvinist and Arminian. There always will be. It's not because one segment of the church abandoned double predestination in favor of free will. The church stood for 4 centuries before Augustine, and even though much of the modern church may have the problems you mentioned, it is not because of free will. (Fundamentalists--most of them believing in free will-- claim the same tendencies are because of contemporary music or Bible translations, or not "separating" enough. What ever issue people focus on, they claim the church "stands or falls" on it. If we really want to do the church some good, we would put away such arguments involving time vs. God's realm that are the things of the Lord, and the philosophies associated with them as Paul warns. Then, we would be "one body preaching one message".

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I do not believe in a disappointed saviour, a defeated Holy Spirit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I also forgot to mention that the Bible does say that God is disappointed, the Holy Spirit, while not "defeated" can be grieved and quenched, and and Christ weeps and God delights not in man's destruction, rather than taking "good pleasure" in it as the Rom.9 mis-citation goes. People are making up their own mind what a "sovereign God" is, thinking that just because the concept is "tough" it is true.

 

[S. Baptist]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


WHY??? can't people "hear" the gospel, if many are called but few chosen, then it's evident that some "Hear" but don't respond in a way that is acceptable to God.

Why does God call these he knows isn't going to respond, does God do anything "for
nothing"??

Does God "intentionally" blind these people, not according to scripture, they have blinded
themselves.

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and "THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED"; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and
hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Isa 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say
unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be
destroyed from among the people.


God calls even those whom he knows will not "believe", Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, so it's possible for them to be saved, what excuse will they have on Judgment day for still being sinners, NONE.

They can't accuse God of not allowing them an "equal opportunity" to be saved, as
Predestination does.

Their sins have already been paid for, BUT, "THEIR UNBELIEF" has prevented the payment from being credited to their account.

In dying for the sins of the whole world, salvation is offered to the whole world, the only reason any must pay the wages of sin, is "THEIR UNBELIEF".

Did God close their ears/eyes, or did they close their ears/eyes???